Krontalk

Chronos => Software Dev => Topic started by: DDR on February 22, 2018, 11:12:03 PM

Title: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 22, 2018, 11:12:03 PM
Hey guys! I've finally got the wireframe-ish mockups I've been making into a presentable shape. I've made a few versions of a future main screen I'd love to get some feedback on. 8)

Here's an early iteration, Version A.
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=147)

Version A in record mode. (The blue ring is how much memory you have left to record in to.)
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=149)

After some discussion internally, this resulted in Version B, where the text moved out onto the image and the record button moved into the sidebar beside the play and save screen button.
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=151)

Then patrickrebstock, somewhat unintentionally, inspired me to try switching around some of the buttons to put the most-used ones on the left side. (Or the right side, if you check that checkbox in Prefs. & Utilities.) I'm loosely preferential to the easy thumb reach in this version, though I think it was better organized in Version B. All the menus-buttons were on the right there, all the action-buttons were on the top.

Version C:
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=153)

Anyway, if y'all have any thoughts, I'd love to hear them! I really need some feedback on my work - Krontech is nice, but there's only so many people I can bother here. ;)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: jasonfish on February 22, 2018, 11:18:34 PM
C
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: BiduleOhm on February 23, 2018, 03:43:45 AM
Definitely version C :)

What would be awesome is to be able to chose which buttons are assigned to which functions (like top button 1 = ... top button 2 = ..., etc...).
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on February 23, 2018, 08:23:21 AM
version c but maybe with a few tweaks,
switch record settings with the white balance,
switch the prefs & utilities with black balance

that way all camera settings are across the top where not used as much and then the right hand side is all the buttons used while shooting

different question how are we going to set white balance with the kelvin temp rather than custom in the future, is it from that button? 
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: jasonfish on February 23, 2018, 11:11:04 AM
version c but maybe with a few tweaks,
switch record settings with the white balance,
switch the prefs & utilities with black balance

that way all camera settings are across the top where not used as much and then the right hand side is all the buttons used while shooting

Seconded
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 23, 2018, 03:02:32 PM
version c but maybe with a few tweaks,
switch record settings with the white balance,
switch the prefs & utilities with black balance

that way all camera settings are across the top where not used as much and then the right hand side is all the buttons used while shooting

Seconded

So it shall be!

(I'm kinda snowed in right now, so I must make my modified mockup Monday.)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: Electra on February 24, 2018, 06:25:28 PM
C also works for me, based on a quick glance and think.
I'm hoping that the new playback screen will move the position slider to the bottom of the screen to give both more space and keep fingers out of the way.
So I'm wondering if doing the same for the Shutter would also be a good idea as the imagines tend to be long and narrow rather than tall and thin.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 26, 2018, 05:00:22 PM
So it shall be!
And so it is. :)

(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=184)
Version D


C also works for me, based on a quick glance and think.
I'm hoping that the new playback screen will move the position slider to the bottom of the screen to give both more space and keep fingers out of the way.
So I'm wondering if doing the same for the Shutter would also be a good idea as the imagines tend to be long and narrow rather than tall and thin.
Thanks!

Yeah, I'd really like to have a bottom slider on the playback screen too. I've drawn up some designs with that in mind (http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=138.msg1163#msg1163)... what you think, Electra? :D

I'm hoping that pinch-to-zoom on the video will make the side shutter slider acceptable. It's a lot more accessible by thumb there, and we don't usually need the fine-grained control over the shutter that we do when we're reviewing footage. Plus, we'll be able to do fine-grained shutter adjustments with the jog wheel soon!
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: Electra on February 26, 2018, 05:27:05 PM
Please no 'pinch to zoom' for any settings changes. Using a single finger to scroll around the image and manipulate controls is easy enough to work out but multi-touch becomes hard to discover and I don't believe are needed on a screen like this.
As far as I know, the shutter speed is quite important to most users of the camera, so having it along the bottom would make it visually match the playback screen, give you more control and would only be further aided by the scroll knob to do fine tweaks.
It's been one of the most fiddly controls after the playback scroll, at least to me(I use it on a tripod 95% of the time, so everything is done with an index finger).  But at the end, I'll listen to those who use it every day.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 26, 2018, 06:54:24 PM
Something like this?
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=187)
Version E

(The Auto button, here, would set the slider as high as it could go without clipping. It wouldn't be exclusive to this particular design, probably. It's just that I only now remembered it.)

The reason I'd wanted pinch-to-zoom was to let you focus the camera. Right now, if you're shooting at 1280x1024px, you're looking at a viewport 600x480px wide while you try to focus the image. By letting you zoom in, you could see how sharp your focus really was. It wouldn't change what the camera recorded. However, I think this might have quite some confusion potential as the camera suddenly isn't recording what it's showing. I don't have any great ideas how to fix this, actually - can you think of anything? :-\

I do agree that multi-touch is hard to discover. I think we should support pinch-to-zoom though because it's pretty standard - everything with a touch screen that supports zooming supports pinch-to-zoom. However, that's the only multi-touch gesture I'd want to implement. You could also zoom with one finger if you tap-tapdrag, if you wanted. Or just ignore the zooming altogether, which is what we have now.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: jasonfish on February 26, 2018, 09:09:47 PM
Why not just tap the live view to zoom ... maybe 4x, tap again to restore to 1x?
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 26, 2018, 09:18:08 PM
That's... not a bad idea, we do only need it for zoom...

I would like to keep consistency with the playback screen, and I suspect there's too many tappable things already on the playback screen to do that there. Still... dang, yeah, that would be nice. It doesn't really conflict with pinch-to-zoom either. :D
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: jasonfish on February 26, 2018, 09:24:58 PM
Tap to zoom would be perfectly fine for quick double-check-focus actions. But then again, that's assuming that one's focus point is in the center of the frame. If not, one would need to tap to zoom, then drag to recenter on the focus point. So maybe pinch-zoom-pan is the only universally usable option.

I like simplicity of code, but now I'm torn. :)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: Electra on February 27, 2018, 04:51:13 AM
I like the slider along the bottom and the 'auto' button.  It's exact height would depend on how the 'playback' screen was done, as the viewport and menu sizes are the same, it would be no disadvantage to leave the exposure slider the same size..

One way around pinch to zoom, assuming there is room to add them, would be a 'zoom in/out' button pair then 'drag' to pan around would work.
Maybe, depending on what others think, you can have 'focus aids' and that would invert/depress the button and replace recording settings/play+save with 'zoom in/out'  'zebra toggle' 'focus aid level'   etc. and show that your in a different viewing mode?   Would adding this extra step get in the way of other's workflow?

(And for the record, while I'd rather not have pinch-to-zoom or other things that are not completely obvious due to a dislike of hard to discover features, I'd accept it if there is no other sane way.  A 'zoom to check focus' feature would be very handy indeed.)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on February 27, 2018, 06:49:58 AM
Something like this?
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=187)
Version E

(The Auto button, here, would set the slider as high as it could go without clipping. It wouldn't be exclusive to this particular design, probably. It's just that I only now remembered it.)

The reason I'd wanted pinch-to-zoom was to let you focus the camera. Right now, if you're shooting at 1280x1024px, you're looking at a viewport 600x480px wide while you try to focus the image. By letting you zoom in, you could see how sharp your focus really was. It wouldn't change what the camera recorded. However, I think this might have quite some confusion potential as the camera suddenly isn't recording what it's showing. I don't have any great ideas how to fix this, actually - can you think of anything? :-\

I do agree that multi-touch is hard to discover. I think we should support pinch-to-zoom though because it's pretty standard - everything with a touch screen that supports zooming supports pinch-to-zoom. However, that's the only multi-touch gesture I'd want to implement. You could also zoom with one finger if you tap-tapdrag, if you wanted. Or just ignore the zooming altogether, which is what we have now.
i still like the exposure slider on the right hand side,  and yes definatly have pinch to zoom that would help focus alot and everyone can figure that out, i mean iphones are in every pocket
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on February 27, 2018, 07:19:00 AM
but if i can control the exposure with the jog dial that would be my favorite! :)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: BiduleOhm on February 27, 2018, 11:25:17 AM
I don't see any problem with pinch to zoom and drag to pan; with all the smartphones and tablets now it's pretty much "touch screen + image = pinch and drag" in everyone's brain, and there's also the manual for the few % who might have missed that.

And we can always add a click to toggle the zoom level, it's not mutually exclusive with the pinch to zoom AFAIK.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 27, 2018, 09:31:55 PM
Tap to zoom would be perfectly fine for quick double-check-focus actions. But then again, that's assuming that one's focus point is in the center of the frame. If not, one would need to tap to zoom, then drag to recenter on the focus point. So maybe pinch-zoom-pan is the only universally usable option.

I like simplicity of code, but now I'm torn. :)
We'd probably want to make it zoom in on wherever you tapped.


One way around pinch to zoom, assuming there is room to add them, would be a 'zoom in/out' button pair then 'drag' to pan around would work.
Agreed.

Maybe, depending on what others think, you can have 'focus aids' and that would invert/depress the button and replace recording settings/play+save with 'zoom in/out'  'zebra toggle' 'focus aid level'   etc. and show that your in a different viewing mode?   Would adding this extra step get in the way of other's workflow?
I think it would be OK. Especially with a predictable opening position, sub-menus are quite quick once you are familiar with them.

Currently, I only have one sub-menu in the design. The Focus Aid button's settings got brought out of the Util screen. It will make it one more tap, or at least a more complex tap, to toggle Focus Aid. But I think it's worth it to be able to see what the settings you're setting are doing.
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=155)

I'm going to have to play around with it a little more before I know exactly how interaction will be. I'll do whatever feels natural to me, but it'll probably be something like 'tap outside the menu to close it, tap inside to press buttons on it'. Nothing too wild. I am considering, if you drag onto the menu, it auto-closes when you release... but I think that might be 'nice but weird', which I don't really like. Like I said, I'll have to play around with it.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on February 27, 2018, 10:14:18 PM
i dont see anyone having problems with pinch to zoom, that would be a wonderful interaction and then drag around zoomed in area.

with the set White balance, how will setting a degree kelvin work? rather than the custom wb that we have now
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: Electra on February 27, 2018, 11:12:38 PM
I would have zero issue with it being *in addition to* zoom in/out buttons. It's a great short cut that many people seem comfortable with or want it.
(I don't really like it myself, having dealt with the frustration of old/damaged/dirty(or heavily protected) gear not registering the second finger/dropping touches/etc. Trying to hold a large/heavy device in two hands while doing multi-tap is a pain. If it's set up on a light tripod or balanced atop something to set up the shot.)

One thought: Mentioned in another thread is that someone would like the ability to use the camera with an external HDMI screen and a mouse. I can imagine this being a very useful feature(Much like being able to plug a mouse into an android smartphone and having it bring up a cursor).

You suggested 'tap to zoom'.  That alone might be enough. Set it so if you tap the image, wherever you tap would zoom in to a magnified view on that spot.(With big 'zoomed in' text)  Tap again returns to normal view. So you can quickly tap-zoom/tap-unzoom a few spots. It would simplify the interaction and also do the same thing.

The final designs would need to be tested though for what 'feels right' as you said.  These are all just ideas.

And I keep forgetting to mention it. I like the 'exposure changed' reminder. That is a nice(if unrelated) touch.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on February 28, 2018, 07:42:43 AM
on the exposure changed thought, when is the black calibration going to be faster like it says in future versions of firmware, is this being worked on for next version?
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 28, 2018, 02:05:42 PM
I would have zero issue with it being *in addition to* zoom in/out buttons. It's a great short cut that many people seem comfortable with or want it.
(I don't really like it myself, having dealt with the frustration of old/damaged/dirty(or heavily protected) gear not registering the second finger/dropping touches/etc. Trying to hold a large/heavy device in two hands while doing multi-tap is a pain. If it's set up on a light tripod or balanced atop something to set up the shot.)
That is a mighty good point, and one I hadn't thought of. Thank you for bringing it up.

One thought: Mentioned in another thread is that someone would like the ability to use the camera with an external HDMI screen and a mouse. I can imagine this being a very useful feature(Much like being able to plug a mouse into an android smartphone and having it bring up a cursor).
After I've implemented the restyled back-of-camera interface, I'll be making a dedicated app you can run on a computer or cellphone. It'll have good mouse support. :)

And I keep forgetting to mention it. I like the 'exposure changed' reminder. That is a nice(if unrelated) touch.
Thanks!  ;D



on the exposure changed thought, when is the black calibration going to be faster like it says in future versions of firmware, is this being worked on for next version?
Right now, we've got it down to 4 seconds for max resolution, and more or less instantaneous at low resolutions.

We've got a few ideas to make it effectively instantaneous, at which point we'll remove the little reminder popup and just perform software black cal when we need to. (This probably won't make it into the next release though.)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: BiduleOhm on February 28, 2018, 02:21:51 PM
Right now, we've got it down to 4 seconds for max resolution, and more or less instantaneous at low resolutions.

We've got a few ideas to make it effectively instantaneous, at which point we'll remove the little reminder popup and just perform software black cal when we need to. (This probably won't make it into the next release though.)

Wow, that's impressive! Good job on that ;)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on February 28, 2018, 04:49:10 PM
Thanks! Credit where credit is due: it's pretty much all Loial's doing. 8)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on March 17, 2018, 03:47:06 PM
Great news on Black call
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on July 23, 2018, 07:49:00 PM
OK, time to perform some thread necromancy here and revive this topic. Design requirements have changed somewhat with the addition of soft buttons.
(https://units.wesnoth.org/1.10/pics/core$images$units$undead-necromancers$necromancer.png)

First up, we have the upper row of (fixed) buttons replaced by soft buttons. I'm thinking these should default to Recording Settings, Trigger/IO, Trigger Delay, and Prefs & Utils. However, as we see people use the camera, we will refine these defaults. I don't really know how they will be used at the moment.

The soft buttons would be configured in the utils menu, and perhaps by long-tap. (Long taps are terrible to discover, so there needs to be a backup. And no one reads the manual. :P)

Mockup 7:
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=308;image)

The buttons along the side now slide out menus. Tapping a button will slide the entire right panel to the left to make room for the opened panel. This means your finger is over whatever you're about to tap on, but it does mean muscle memory is somewhat more situational than it was. The alternative is to pop the opened panel up to the left (or on top of) of the exposure slider. Less prone to accidental clicks, and nothing has to move around. :)

The buttons are mapped as follows:


Mockup 8:
(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=310;image)

As an alternative to having default soft buttons, we could have no soft buttons at all until they are configured in the Utils screen. This makes the main screen design less cluttered when the camera is first encountered, and gives a bit more room for video to be displayed.


As a side note, in the future soft buttons could be extended to include the vertical column of buttons as well as the top row. You'd probably have a list of options and configurations they could activate, and by checking them you could build up a menu. There's quite a lot of possibility here. Perhaps long-tapping on any button lets you select it as a soft button? Perhaps the entire home screen could be surrounded by soft buttons if you wanted. Perhaps there could be multiple, customizable screens.

Schedule-wise, the first mockup, mockup 7, may make it into the initial release of the new UI. However, anything else will have to come later due to time constraints.

As always, please let me know what you think. Your feedback has a huge influence on the design of the Chronos UI! :D
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: BiduleOhm on July 24, 2018, 03:35:00 AM
You have very good ideas :D

Of course if we can have all the buttons as customizable soft buttons it would be great.

And I think the battery icon should always be displayed (even when there's buttons on the top row).
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: NiNeff on July 24, 2018, 09:57:52 AM
Definitively Version 8 over 7!
I also like the clear battery icon, you can see at one glance what it means and how full the battery is.
Not cluttering the screen with buttons is also a good idea. If someone wants them they can configure and add their own, and everything is packed neatly into their own menues where it belongs.
However this needs to be finely balanced, Too little buttons has you searching for vital settings over and over again while too much is just confusing and reducing the screenspace for the video preview. Therefore a small default with custom additions would be a great solution for almost all usecases.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: Fyodor on July 24, 2018, 10:33:55 PM
I'm totally with NiNeff!
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on July 25, 2018, 05:25:13 PM
Let's roll with V8 then. 8)
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: DDR on July 26, 2018, 06:31:44 PM
Well, I can't leave anything alone, so I've whipped up a ~modern touch display~ version. (It's based loosely on Krita's radial menu style.) I think it looks pretty, but it's also kind of mysterious what things do.

(http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=135.0;attach=314;image)

Tap anywhere on screen to bring up the radial menu. Buttons are the same as mockup 8, and do the same thing. Tapping the resolution in the corner brings up the list of presets, because it might as well.

I personally think it looks good, and it makes much better use of the screen space for image preview, but I don't like icon-only navigation which I think is confusing. I think zooming in on the video will help fix the focus issue we've got now, which is the main reason we wanted to make better use of the screen space in the first place.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: Fyodor on July 26, 2018, 11:14:28 PM
I'm not a big fan of these modern menus Sure they look nice, but are they easy to use? When you have more than two layers, they become very confusing. It would make the viewing area larger, though, wich I would prefer... hard to decide.

I guess, an overlay menu that only appears when needed would be a good idea. Also some options like shutter angle, resolution, etc. can be overlayed as in your example.

Just make sure that the menu looks the same all the time, no matter when and where I click on the screen. What constantly annoys me with the ribbon menus in modern software is the "context sensitivity". An item needs to be in the same place each and every time I want to access it. It mustn't jump around erratically. If this can be achieved, I'm happy. Settings screens etc. should then still be opened full screen and can block the video completely. Just a few important quick settings should be overlayed. In that case it isn't too important to have text labels, because you learn quickly the meanings of the icons.
Title: Re: Updating the UI: Main Screen Edition
Post by: patrickrebstock on August 08, 2018, 09:29:07 AM
having the option to hide menus and settings and get full screen preview will be nice,
main problem when using chronos is the dim screen
i cant wait to use external monitor