Author Topic: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread  (Read 48850 times)

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #360 on: June 16, 2020, 02:25:23 PM »
The past few weeks I've been playing around with upscaling files from the Chronos 1.4. I shot this at around 3,500 FPS at a resolution of 800 X 480. The one on the left was shot at 800 X 480 and the right was upscaled 400% to 3200 X 1920 (Click on image below to see full image). I know that it's always best to just keep it at whatever resolution you shot it at, but when uploading to Youtube, it's best to upscale for higher bitrate playback. Not ideal, but it does help. I will be posting a video soon on how I prep my footage for upscaling. Upscaling with good results can be done. I'm still trying to find a good balance when it comes to removing noise and reducing oversharpening artifacts. Please subscribe below for the video. It should be up this week or early next week.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs5ZZS86T3tdl8s6D_QxtZQ

« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 02:54:02 PM by B.H.V »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #361 on: June 16, 2020, 02:30:43 PM »
The past few weeks I've been playing around with upscaling files from the Chronos 1.4. I shot this at around 3,500 FPS at a resolution of 800 X 480. The one on the left was shot at 800 X 480 and the right was upscaled 400% to 3200 X 1920. I know that it's always best to just keep it at whatever resolution you shot it at, but when uploading to Youtube, it's best to upscale for higher bitrate. Not ideal, but it does help. I will be posting a video soon on how I prep my footage for upscaling. Upscaling with good results can be done. I'm still trying to find a good balance when it comes to removing noise and reducing oversharpening artifacts. Please subscribe below for the video. It should be up this week or early next week.  :)

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCs5ZZS86T3tdl8s6D_QxtZQ?view_as=subscriber

What Software and/ or Plugin(s)/Effects do you use for the Upscaling?Just straight up scaling in an Video Editor and playing around with denoising, smoothing and Sharpening Filters/ Effects or do you use Specialized Software for Upscaling?Also Played around with upscaling a while ago, and got "useable" Results up untill 200% Scaling, didnt like the Results if i pushed it much further.

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #362 on: June 16, 2020, 02:39:34 PM »
I'm using Magix Vegas Pro 17. The combination of plugins I use are Neat Video 5, Convolution Kernel, VEAI and Unsharp Mask. There is a smart upscale plugin in Vegas Pro as well. For these upscaling tests, I shoot DNG to get the best possible quality. I feel the like the DNG files play better when upscaling. I'll upload a short video in a bit so you guys can see the difference. Of course, nothing will beat shooting at a native resolution, but for some shots, especially for close-ups and mid-type shots, it can work decently.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 07:06:42 AM by B.H.V »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #363 on: June 16, 2020, 02:55:42 PM »
I'm using Magix Vegas Pro 17. The combination of plugins I use are Neat Video 5, Convolution Kernel, and Unsharp Mask. There is a smart upscale plugin in Vegas Pro as well. I'll upload a short video in a bit so you guys can see the difference. Of course, nothing will beat shooting at a native resolution, but for some shots, especially for close-ups and mid-type shots, it can work decently.
Ok, that makes sense then. I heard about Neat Video and -Photo, but since its not free, i never went that far to actually buy it. From what i heard it should be pretty good for upscaling. I always just used Adobe AfterEffects (What i use for anything cause i love it and allready have that) and Unsharp Mask and some Basic Effects found in any other serious software for Editing, which still gives Decent enough results for the Casual upscaling i do, but that doesnt quite work for such extreme Stuff like 400% while still looking good. And as far as using native resolution goes, sure, Untouched Footage in Native Resolution with extreme Bitrates or even Raw will always be the best, but you cant just put Raw files on YT for example.... Sometimes you have to scale stuff up and edit it, or even convert it down to pretty low bitrate in comparison to the Material you have to work with. And thats fine for most things (Especially for just viewing it, if you then again try to edit it, you might run into problems with low quality files). What i found to work best however is if you try to stick to "nice" upscaling factors. For example 200% or 400%. Stuff like 150% and 300% sometimes can look ok (Especially 150%) most of the time, but some Odd upscaling Factor will mostly look strange. Values very close to that mostly also work good enough. I think thats because you make 1 pixel into 4 "new" pixels for 200% Scaling for example, and its pretty clearly defined for the Software where to put the color Values and what to do. For odd Factors you sometimes just end up blending Color Values together in a weird way because it just doesnt line up that well whith the New "Pixel Grid" you try to force it in.... At least thats how i understand the whole Upscaling thing, and what i found to work best over time.

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #364 on: June 16, 2020, 04:01:42 PM »
Yes, Neat Video 5 is great, and I think it's a great investment for denoising video. It even does a decent job of getting rid of edge artifacts. You just don't want to overdo it to avoid plasticy smooth looking video. I also add a little bit of film grain just to add more texture to the image. Here is the upscaling video tests. Unfortunately, I think Youtube compressed the video a bit still so if anyone wants the original file via Google Drive, I can send it. But you can still see the difference between the two. While it's not perfect, I think the upscaling worked decently. The DNG files from the Chronos are very flexible. I'll be doing more tests and if you guys are interested in how I work with the footage, please subscribe to my channel as I'll be sharing more tips on how I shoot and edit with the Chronos 1.4.

« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 04:05:49 PM by B.H.V »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #365 on: June 16, 2020, 04:20:00 PM »
Yes, Neat Video 5 is great, and I think it's a great investment for denoising video. It even does a decent job of getting rid of edge artifacts. You just don't want to overdo it to avoid plasticy smooth looking video. I also add a little bit of film grain just to add more texture to the image. Here is the upscaling video tests. Unfortunately, I think Youtube compressed the video a bit still so if anyone wants the original file via Google Drive, I can send it. But you can still see the difference between the two. While it's not perfect, I think the upscaling worked decently. I'll be doing more tests and if you guys are interested in how I work with the footage, please subscribe to my channel as I'll be sharing more tips on how I shoot and edit with the Chronos 1.4.


That really does not look that bad for a 400% Upscale. However also doesnt really compare to anything native 4k (or 3.2k to be percise ... I am Watching on an UHD 28" Monitor), but considering what the Original footage was, nobody expected that anyways hopefully. Still pretty impressive. I think what Neat Video Does here is kind of simmilar to what other Plugins like Twixtor (A Time-Warping-Plugin for Digital simulated slow-Motion) does. I can See some Warping between the Frames, which doesnt look 100% Natural, but its kind of hard to notice unless you look closely. Seems like some Analysis of the surounding frames to get the Most out of the Current frame. I think this works very well on this clip because you have VERY well Defined Edges of the Bird and everything else, a Smooth Background and a very slow moving Subject. Twixor also does best under such conditions. I assume Neat would have somewhat of a harder time on fast moving stuff which is not that well separated. If you want to really torture-Test Neat Video, try to hit it with something like Slow-Mo-Guys Recently posted. Glitter.... If it can handle that and still produce anything else than an complete Mess at 400% Upscaling, i would be crazy impressed. Other bad things to throw at it would be dirt/particles/ Water or anything with a lot of detail and tons of small particles moving all over the Place, preferrably while they are moving fast, Stuff with a ton of Static noise or digital Grain on top of it and things like that.

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #366 on: June 16, 2020, 04:29:23 PM »
Yeah, I agree. I think it really is all about how and what you shoot. When shooting, I try to overexpose just a hair or just expose to the point of clipping so I get cleaner shadows. I think too what you are seeing is motion blur. I tend to shoot at the slowest shutter speed possible to let in more light, and I think I'm going to avoid doing that now just to get less motion blur. They say to always double your shutter speed to the framerate you are shooting. I have another test that I did where I upscaled a 1280 X 1024 file, and that looks even better than this one since I'm upscaling from a bigger resolution. I'll post that one soon, and I'll try the suggestions you posted as well. Thanks for the feedback and info. : )
« Last Edit: June 16, 2020, 04:32:23 PM by B.H.V »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #367 on: June 16, 2020, 04:42:24 PM »
Yes, thats Very possible, that it may be Motion Blur. Doesnt bother me that much for "normal" Speed Video, thus i also see its there, but for very slow moving stuff it always looks extremely strange to me, when close-to- or 360 Shutter is used. Lower Res Stuff is not that bad, i try attaching a File i filmed with my Nikon1 J5 some Time ago. 400x144px is the most resolution you will get out of that Camera @1200fps (Which is still impressive image Quality and framerate for the 100-350 Bodies of that series while beeing able to use interchangeable Lenses....). Still looks "not terrible", even on a large Screen. Didnt do anything on that Clip, except flip it 90 and lower Bitrate for Web, otherwise untouched and Uncut clip from the Nikons Standard MP4 Output-File (allready posted that one here in the Forum some time ago). So, i guess its also a lot about what you start with. If the Clip itself is looking good allready, just lacking resolution, i think you can push it quite a bit, but you cant really do a lot about it if it looks bad allready to beginn with...

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #368 on: June 17, 2020, 04:32:14 AM »
Thanks for sharing that file. I can play around with it too. Yeah, I heard a lot about the Nikon J5. I wonder why they never continued making newer models based on it. I think a year or two after they discontinued it, the Sony RX100 IV and Sony RX10 II got released that could do similar frame rates but at a higher resolution. One advantage that it has that you mentioned is that it is an interchangeable body.

So here are two clips I did. One was shot at 1280 X 1024 and the other was upscaled to 4096 X 2304. You can see a little difference. Definitely not as drastic as the other one, but I think it is cleaner. Again, I shot DNG sequences for this one. The files are below. I'll shoot more challenging scenes.



https://www.mediafire.com/file/b7i69w9nppuau0o/Bird_Takeoff_1%2C000_FPS_1280_X_1024.avi/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/mysc4t6o9jh6vup/Bird_Takeoff_1%252C000_FPS_4096_X_2304.mp4/file
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 04:53:46 AM by B.H.V »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #369 on: June 17, 2020, 05:42:56 AM »
The Most sad thing about the Whole 1-Series from Nikon is, just HOW far ahead of its time it was. I think people where just not ready for it, and also Nikon did a pretty bad job at marketing with those cameras and propably caused a lot of wrong expectations and confusion and propably also held back a bit too much in some aspects. Just remember the J1 from that series, the original "1" Nikon (Which came out 2012, but dont quote me on an Exact date...), that one did Full Resolution bursts of photos at 10MP Sensor Resolution and 60 Frames Per second. And that camera also allready did 400fps and 1200fps (Just like any 1-Series Nikon) back then on an (kinda) affordable, VERY portable and small, user friendly interchangeable Lens Camera, which is pretty crazy. Problem with the whole system was mostly, that Nikon somehow allways ended up intentionally crippling the Cameras for Whatever reason and somehow never fully commiting to it. That made them Never really catch too much popularity. Problems included, that they never really made a lot of lenses for the System (though the Lenses that are available are INSANELY good!), and also tried seemingly everything to make it difficult for you to use other lenses With the Sysem (For example, the Camera clearly has Focus Magnification, Auto-ISO, Auto Exposure, Focus Assistant and many other things, but they dont work unless with orignal Nikon Glass). And also a few other "little" things like this. This propably ended up frustrating true full-Time professionals who tried it as Workhorses and more serious users (though the system clearly never was intended for that according to nikon), and it propably also was too complicated for those who just wanted to get an point-And Shoot. The small group of people Left to buy the Cameras (at a still rather high price point if you just look at it as an small Photo-Camera in comparison to what was available at the time), then ended up not producing enough sales apparently. You can really tell, that a lot of R&D went into making these Cameras. I took apart quite a few from the J-Series and Modified them, and all of them Are very well made and surprisingly well and Strong built. There is no tiny bit of space Wasted inside, packed full, really nicely built cameras. Then, as they saw that the system somehow never really took off after multiple attempts, they seemingly started an last attempt to kickstart the Sales for the System with the J5, the Last one of the System. They got a ton right with this camera (Ergonomics for the size of camera and general layout is the Best ive ever seen on a camera that "small") and sold it at an rather agressive, competitive price point, but still ended up crippling it to death, and with that, not much later, Nikon sadly decided to discontiue the System Completely. biggest fails in the J5 were that they still continued to disable focus assistants and Automatic Exposure functions for third-Party lenses (the Exposure Meter finally worked with this one), didnt allow for external Flash, the Weird limitations on video (just 15fps on 4K video...? 1/60s Maximum exposure, even at 15 and 30fps...? again no auto-Exposure or auto-Iso -anything for Manual Lenses...and some more), no audio-in and a lot of other seemingly intentionally missing options in the Menu. I know that thats kind of what the V-Series was for (external Flash and Audio-in) but those wherent much better in terms of overall missing functions and also way more Expensive. I never missed the Viewfinder on any of the J-Series however. The Fact that Viewfinders where optional or not even availble on this series of cameras triggered so many people for some reason... As Far as the J5 goes, the Screen is actually that good that you dont even really ever need one and also are WAY more Flexible than if it had one.
 .
 However, its a great system, and they really could have taken this System places with newer sensors and new processors nowerdays. Remember, all the 1-Series Sensors are Sony-Chips from what i know, Nikon usualy gets acces to them after Sony is done building a camera with them (RX-Series in this case) and somehow still end up getting better results out of them then, so, as you said, imagine the Sony RX-Specs on an Camera body of the Same Size with interchangeable lens mount and an Reasonable Amount of buttons and options to make it very useable! I never quite understood, what they actually tried to achive with all the Limitations on those cameras...? Maybe something like Canon is known for doing since many Years, where they intentionally left out functionality on Small, Cheap Cameras to force you buy the Big Cameras if you want certain functions to not make everyone just buy the Cheaper option instead? Never really figured that out, anyways, thats one of the things that killed the System in the Long term. Apart from all the Flaws (which any system in Existence has btw.) ist an amazing, yet rather Pricey System. The System gets a lot of hate in some Places, some is justified, as i explained above, some really not. But anyone i know who actually looked into it and tried it himself, loved it.
 .
 For me (and i looked at quite some Cameras) the J5 is just THE Camera to use. Its not quite "up to date" in terms of latest features anymore, but its also still holds up very well. Overall its a very fun to use and very streamlined Camera. Still havnt found anything nearly as good/nice to maybe replace it at some point, guess ill just stay with the J5 for a while.

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #370 on: June 17, 2020, 06:12:37 AM »
Thanks for sharing that file. I can play around with it too. Yeah, I heard a lot about the Nikon J5. I wonder why they never continued making newer models based on it. I think a year or two after they discontinued it, the Sony RX100 IV and Sony RX10 II got released that could do similar frame rates but at a higher resolution. One advantage that it has that you mentioned is that it is an interchangeable body.

So here are two clips I did. One was shot at 1280 X 1024 and the other was upscaled to 4096 X 2304. You can see a little difference. Definitely not as drastic as the other one, but I think it is cleaner. Again, I shot DNG sequences for this one. The files are below. I'll shoot more challenging scenes.



https://www.mediafire.com/file/b7i69w9nppuau0o/Bird_Takeoff_1%2C000_FPS_1280_X_1024.avi/file

https://www.mediafire.com/file/mysc4t6o9jh6vup/Bird_Takeoff_1%252C000_FPS_4096_X_2304.mp4/file
Played around with the two files a bit, and the Upscaling result ist definatly something else than anything i can do with basic effects quickly. Doesnt look too natural when zoomed in, you can definately tell some kind of serious image processing is going on, but still no sign of that typical over-Sharpened look you get when trying to forcing sharpness and not too distracting overall for the average viewer, with still a ton more details than the plain footage.A thing i really dislike is, what it does with the out of focus-Highlights. Serious banding going on there. but that could be worked around with some Kind of masking rather easily if nessercary. Neat is not that bad after all it seems. I might think about buying it, when i end up needing to upscale more often in the future. i would propably end up using it at 150 to 200% Scaling at most times, but first i need to get some other stuff as far as software goes, an actuall legit licence of Twixtor pro is way higher on the list... but still, i will keep that in mind. Last question i had about Neat Video was how it compares in render Times? So, Exporting the Footage blank, without any effects at native Resolution at compareable Bitrate to the Reder Time of the Same File with Just the Upscaling applied (no other effects).

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #371 on: June 17, 2020, 06:35:19 AM »
The downside of Neat Video 5 is the speed. The render times can increase about 4X especially when rendering out to 4K. 1080P rendering is not too bad but still expect about a 1.25X increase when rendering with Neat Video than without it. Having a powerful GPU and CPU will help a ton. The program has an option to use both to increase speed. My system has a six-core i7 8700K CPU and a NVIDIA GTX 1080 mobile card.

Yeah, I mean as long as you aren't pixel peeping and zooming in the upscaled footage, it looks pretty decent. It's weird cause I'm not seeing any serious banding on mine. Are you watching it on an HDR TV? I'll have some more footage in the coming days. I took note of the shots you wanted to see. Thanks again for the feedback.

Edit: By the way, you should try using DAIN. It uses AI, depth awareness when doing motion interpolation so it should be better than Twixtor. It's also a free program but you can donate too. The downside is that it only runs on certain GPU cards and the render time can be quite long. I actually have been doing motion interpolation tests as well. While neither are perfect, I think it has less artifcacts than Twixtor.

I just saw the banding you speak of. That actually a highlighting artifact from Lightroom for one of the sliders. Forgot to disable it.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2020, 06:46:02 AM by B.H.V »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #372 on: June 17, 2020, 06:50:23 AM »
That's the downside of Neat Video 5 is the speed. The render times can increase about 4X especially when rendering out to 4K. 1080P rendering is not too bad but still expect about a 1.25X increase when rendering with Neat Video than without it. Having a powerful GPU and CPU will help a ton. The program has an option to use both to increase speed. My system has a six-core i7 8700K CPU and a NVIDIA GTX 1080 mobile card.

Yeah, I mean as long as you aren't pixel peeping and zooming in the upscaled footage, it looks pretty decent. It's weird cause I'm not seeing any serious banding on mine. Are you watching it on an HDR TV? I'll have some more footage in the coming days. I took note of the shots you wanted to see. Thanks again for the feedback.
4x Rendertime is not that bad honestly. Rendering / Editing 4k on its own is quite the task itself, not to even mention effects like upscaling, even for a decent modern PC of any sort.The Banding isnt super visible on an average monitor, but i have two TN-Panels and an IPS (All uhd, some of the First reasonable ones that were made, only the IPS is newer and reasonable color-Accurate, but its smaller size), the TNs Have some Strange, tight viewing angles and on top of them, one of them is Mounted upside down (dont even ask why, that would take to long to propperly explain  ;D ). So, with those Monitors you will instantly notice anything wrong in the Higlights or shadows if you move your head the smalles bit. I put them Into AE and put some curves on it, to see it better and its definatly there, but not the end of the World. I guess most people wont even notice unless you asked them about it and they looked for it. Left is the Upscaled File, right is the Original Footage File. I guess the Banding comes from the Neat-Plugin trying to also Sharpen the edges of the seperate tones in the Sky or some other additional Processing its doing apart from Sharpening. Its kinda hard to notice i guess, but i just saw that instantly on my Monitor.

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #373 on: June 17, 2020, 06:58:52 AM »
Edit: By the way, you should try using DAIN. It uses AI, depth awareness when doing motion interpolation so it should be better than Twixtor. It's also a free program but you can donate too. The downside is that it only runs on certain GPU cards and the render time can be quite long. I actually have been doing motion interpolation tests as well. While neither are perfect, I think it has less artifcacts than Twixtor.

I just saw the banding you speak of. That actually a highlighting artifact from Lightroom for one of the sliders. Forgot to disable it.
Never heard about DAIN, will maybe check it out at some point, but Twixtor, even though not perfect seem like a VERY solid Plugin, just like AE itself, and while not crazy fast, its also not THAT slow. Artifacts are kind of expected with that kind of stuff like you would use Twixtor for, and i think a lot of it comes down to how you shot whatever you try to edit with it, just like Neat also cant magically convert a crappy, shaky phone Snapshot from a dark Backyard at night into a high-res well-Lit Stock-Photo.... If you feed Twixtor right, it produces very good results, i used the Free Test-Version now quite a bit, but that one has either a Watermark or takes some Serious rendertime (Talking 10x to the full version) if you work around the Watermark with some nifty tricks. Otherwise pretty happy with it. Anyhow, i will see what that DAIN is all about if i find some time, maybe its just actually better?

B.H.V

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Re: Chronos 1.4 Footage Thread
« Reply #374 on: June 17, 2020, 06:59:56 AM »
Okay, got you.  :) In some monitors, I'm noticing it too so I guess it depends on the monitor. But I think that banding came from a Lightroom slider that I forgot to disable. I'm just seeing it now. Thanks for letting me know. This will help me tweak the upscaling results. Btw, here is the DAIN app link. If you have a powerful GPU card, you can test it out. I'll have test footage to show too either later today or tomorrow.

https://grisk.itch.io/dain-app