Author Topic: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details  (Read 1024 times)

rnighting

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Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« on: April 05, 2019, 11:42:22 AM »
Chronos 2.1 demo footage looks awesome! However, after watching the overview video, I had some questions.

The LUX2100 product brief claims 700,000+ FPS, but the Chronos 1.4's sensor claims 1,000,000 FPS (@1280x1), so I'm a bit skeptical of the camera's actual capability. What is the max FPS the Chronos 2.1 will likely support, and at what resolution? Better yet, do you have a table like you do for the Chronos 1.4?

Is the "2.1" numbering due to an increase in throughput (e.g. 2.1Gpx/s), a reference to the LUX2100 being a 2.1Mpx imager, or something else?

Will you be offering a version of the Chronos 2.1 that uses the LUX8M for people who want the extra spatial resolution, since you apparently already have the drivers working for it?

I thought about emailing my questions, but figured others would have them too, so posting instead :P

rnighting

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #1 on: April 05, 2019, 04:41:00 PM »
Looks like one of the answers was posted in the pinned annoucement and attached datasheet:
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maximum frame rate of 100,000 FPS
which appears to be at 1920x8 (sensor datasheet says "125,000+ FPS @ 1920 × 8", so lost some speed somewhere in the pipeline)

Most of the resolutions posted are 1920 wide. Will there be support for partial width? 128x120 would be the same number of pixels as a 1920x8, and could be more useful in some circumstances, but perhaps there's a hardware limitation preventing this?


Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2019, 07:48:32 AM »
For most Highspeed-Cameras it works like this:
The Sensor COULD put out a LOT of FPS, just the Electronics in the Camera Limit its performance somewhat.
With top of the Line - Highest Priced Cameras i guess the try to use the Full Potential of the Sensor, but for something like the chronos, i think the Developement was going more for overall reasonable Performance at an (for the normal Human) somewhat affordable Price Point (i actually feared, that an 1080p Chronos would be more Like 10k or above in price!). That is, why they propably where not able to use The Full Sensor FPS Capeability, because Fast Electronics, which need to process this Data From the Sensor could get Very Expensive very fast!
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Because of Max Framerate:
Just Look at something like an Flex 4k and those other Phantoms, that do crazy high FPS at 720p Full Sensor Resolution.
It is quite common, that cameras, that have higher Res. Sensors will be a bit Slower.
I am No expert on this, but keep in Mind, that, even if you dont use it (for Lower res. faster Speed), all the Pixels from the Sensor still are there and the Electronics in the Camera still have a lot more data to process, even if you just use 1920x8.
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About the weird 1920x8:
Also not sure about this one, but for some cameras (i guess it is the same thing with the 2.1 Chronos) Max FPS won´t chance if you change Horizontal Resolution. That means, your 125kFPS Max will be the Same, no matter if you record in 1920x8 or in 8x8.
That is, because the data is processed in Lines, not on pixel-by-pixel base. If someone knows this better, feel free to correct me, but i think it works this way. Only benefit of going 8x8 instead of 1920x8 would be, that you should be able to Record MUCH longer with 8x8, because the Lines would still be processed, but only 8x8 pixels would be saved into memory.
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So, it could actually be possible, that you will be able to get more FPS out of the 1.4 than the 2.1, but pushing insane FPS does not look to be main priority with the 2.1, it is more about Image Quality. And that is a very good thing.
Maybe the Kron guys will come up with an crazy high Framerate model of an chronos at some point later, but i think for now, it is a very wise next step from them to go with maximum image quality.

rnighting

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2019, 06:11:07 PM »
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About the weird 1920x8:
I suspect you're righ - that the sensor has a fixed readout stage of the full sensor width that it's the bottleneck for the max frame rate, especially since "700,000+" max rate is conveniently ~8x the 8 line speed - but since I don't have access to the full data sheet, I can only speculate and ask for confirmation.

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go with maximum image quality.
That's one of the reasons I asked about the potential for a LUX8M model. 250FPS is plenty fast for many things, and even if it maxes at half the speed of the LUX2100 (again, no datasheet), that'd still be faster than the Chronos 1.4.

Ultimately, just trying to get a better feel for the actual limitations of the system :)

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #4 on: April 06, 2019, 06:28:54 PM »
To be clear here, i am not that much into all that Electronics, FPGAs, Sensor and Internals -thing in cameras like this. I know a fair bit about how it works, but not so much into the Details.
I can Tell you a lot about Lenses and optics in general, but still dont know, what that LUX8M would be able to do (i guess it is an ...faster, Lower Resolution Sensor? just guessing from what you wrote..), what the new 2.1 Chronos cant do or why or how it would be better.
Sure it would also be nice to have much more FPS, but i and many other people where Waiting for a long time to see 1080p@1000fps in an portable, user-Friendly Camera, that would be somewhat realistic to own for an normal Person.
So this is quite an historical Moment right here, especialy since the 2.1 should also have some Serious Image Quality which could realisticaly even be compareable to some Higher End Professional (Cinema-Style-) Cameras.
For now, i think it is very good. Especialy for such a small an young company this is good. The 2.1 will sell very good i guess, and i also think, we will see further improvements (Like maybe higher FPS) in the next generations /other Models of the Chronos.
For any more serious Questions about specific Sensor specifications and so on, someone else would need to answer this, cause i dont know too much about that stuff.

rnighting

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #5 on: April 06, 2019, 09:42:14 PM »
In the tear down video at 4:17 (https://youtube.com/watch?v=T4iBiVZlzns&t=4m17s) he says they actually took all the demo footage on the LUX8M, which is a higher resolution imager, though it also claims a 700,000+ max FPS, suggesting it has equal speed per line, just more pixels available. Total throughput seems to remain fixed, thus the reduced full frame rate FPS, but since they clearly have suggested they can simulate the LUX2100 expected performance with it, if light quantity isn't a problem (1/4 the pixel area of the 2100, so 4x more light needed for a given exposure time - this is the stuff they were talking about for noise in the footage), seems like it could be a good option for some.

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #6 on: April 07, 2019, 06:34:21 AM »
Damn!
if i understood that correctly, this LUX8M thing makes the Chronos basicaly an 4k 250fps Camera, that will for Lower resolution basicaly do the same thing like current 2.1 release just be a bit worse in Low Light?
Now i am getting excited here.
I am Asking since ages for that FullHD Chronos, and now, out of nowhere they not only developed one, but basicaly also built an 4k 250fps Cinema camera in the same go?
Still thinking, that it is the best thing for the company for now, to go with the 1080p Modell, since the 4k 250fps Sensor is propably more expensive and worse in Low Light?
Would really wonder, what pricing on that 4k one would be like. Specs and Performance- wise it basicaly is, what any more Professional video camera should have been like since a long time. Just no one of the bigger Companys out there ever cared to build such a thing. If this 4K chronos will hit the market at some point, i think they will sell like crazy if it is priced well, like the 2.1 and 1.4.
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#EDIT#: Always wondered why you guys at Krontech where so extremely busy, now i know why  :)
« Last Edit: April 07, 2019, 06:36:20 AM by Nikon1 »

Nikon1

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #7 on: April 07, 2019, 06:40:58 AM »
I suspect you're righ - that the sensor has a fixed readout stage of the full sensor width that it's the bottleneck for the max frame rate, especially since "700,000+" max rate is conveniently ~8x the 8 line speed - but since I don't have access to the full data sheet, I can only speculate and ask for confirmation.

Well, you built yourself an Line-Scan Camera then  ;D
A very fast one.

1022mm

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Re: Chronos 2.1 Technical Details
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2019, 10:14:02 PM »
I'm assuming that since the 2.1's 720p max is still 1,500fps (the same as the 1.4) that the camera must be reading out the full width of the sensor and then cropping it?   Does this mean you could capture 1920x720 at 1,500fps if you wanted (and crop to a 16x9 frame in post)?