Author Topic: Workflow - Time  (Read 2438 times)

BiduleOhm

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2019, 12:31:48 AM »
Just something I remembered: you can use the segmented memory feature to do multiple records before having to export data to a computer if that's helpful to you. I don't know how well it's supported in the current firmware though.

Martin

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #16 on: January 05, 2019, 10:09:23 AM »
Hmmm.... well... that clarifies the speed issue.  If I need faster turnaround from shot to shot, I'll probably just have to purchase a second camera.

Yes, which would also allow for different angles on the same event, which, in research, is always nice to have.

The SSDs that I already have and use with my current camera set-ups are 240GB Intel SSD 520 Series. I would expect them to work great with whatever the Chronos could throw at them

I agree ;D

Quote from: benp
I'll typically have dedicated staff with redundant stations constantly hot-swapping the media cards and dumping the raw footage to HDDs.

In my experience, highspeed recording will always be something you can hardly automate/optimise for highest efficiency production. Each setup takes some time, much longer than the actual recorded event. But this all sounds like you may have some "playmoney", so, why not rent or buy one and see for yourself, how and if you can intigrate the Chronos into a high efficiency workflow? You'd know best :)

Quote from: benp
In short, I don't know what I don't know about high fps work.  The Chronos, I'm learning, requires a shift in my expectations... and I'm okay with that.

Very hard to answer such a question, I'll try anyway. Some of this you already knew, I'm sure.

It all depends on what your main subjects are and how you want them filmed. Most of the times, for varying subjects, the setup (direction and size of view vs scene, lighting, recordingspeed vs motion, shuttersync) and a few tests will take quite some time. The event is usually very short, so, in the end you'll have only a few hundred or thousand frames to save, which, according to Foobar (thanks for the insights!!) never exceed 230fps or 60Mbytes/sec writespeeds.

With eSata and a fast SSD you'll wait roughly 22-25 seconds for 5000 frames encoded with x264 to finish saving (when using 10k fps recording speed and faster).
RAW writespeeds really depend on framesize/filesize per image but are roughly as fast as x264 on 20k fps record and faster)
The videos duration depends how you divide those 5000 frames on playback, e.g. 60 fps playback speed results in 1 min 23 seconds playback time.
I wouldn't go past that playback speed, since older machines start to have playback issues past that mark, I'd guess.

You'll need "clean lighting", without fluctuations from either the powergrid or pulsed LED drivers, else you'll have pulsating brightness in your scene, depending in severity on your recording speed.
(powergrid pulsing becomes "invisible" again at highest recording speeds, it's still there, you just won't notice it anymore)

Shuttersync is most of the times best as close to the maximum as possible, IF you want to see _every_ bit of detail/spec of dust, which will really put your lighting situation to test :) (You might need bright spotslights for that)
But for general motion analysis, it doesn't have to be. An interesting testing field as well! (Pressure waves from my airpistol muzzle looked best/smoothest with slowest shuttersync, the projectile was just a blur though ;) )

There are tons of videos out there now, filmed with the Chronos, maybe there's already something similar to the projects you have in mind?

Quote from: benp
From reading the forums, I already understand that the RAM can be user upgraded for about 1/3 the cost of purchasing that configuration.  And, the reviews on the standard lens aren't that great. 

There are better lenses out there, yes. I've got a 25mm C-Mount f/0.95 Schneider Xenon and I'm quite happy with it. BUT the most sense to me are those speedbooster adaptors, adapting premium glass from Nikon etc to C-Mount, at least in theory: http://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=123.0
RAM-Size depends heavily on your project aim. In all honesty, for single, very short events recorded, the 8Gb model is perfect :) As BiduleOhm mentioned, there are several recording modes, like segmented, where a bigger RAM would mean more segments before you need to flush to storage.

Quote from: benp
Therefore, downtime is avoided at all costs - including paying more for a system configuration I may never need/use.

Multiple cameras would actually make sense then, I'd think. Also considering repair.

Quote from: benp
There are many adapter options already available for using these lenses (with a crop factor) on the Chronos.

That's how I started as well, but crop factor (iirc 4x) isn't doing you _any_ favours here, since you may have to position your camera too far away AND you'll lose quite some light, the lens normally provides. That's why those speedboosters are a nice idea, I have to check up on that ;)
Best would be a native lens, or premium lenses with very minor crop factor difference + speedbooster.

Quote from: benp
At this point, what I probably need to do is find one of the Chronos cameras to borrow or rent that I can try out ... or see about an in-person demo.

Very yes ;)

All the best
Martin
« Last Edit: January 05, 2019, 07:40:54 PM by Martin »

Nikon1

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2019, 09:54:52 AM »

Lenses:  I already have a rather significant inventory of quality SLR/DSLR lenses - from older, manual Nikon primes, macros, & zooms (18mm f2.8 up to 1000mm) to newer Canon EF & EF L primes and zooms (down to f1.4) as well as a handful of f2.8 Minolta primes and zooms.  There are many adapter options already available for using these lenses (with a crop factor) on the Chronos.  I also have SD and HD Fuji & Canon 2/3" bayonet mount broadcast lenses.  And, I don't currently own any PL lenses.  I haven't read any discussions where success in adapting 2/3" and PL lenses to the Chronos has been achieved.  So, these are probably off the table as options.  Finally, I've seen some recommendations for C / CS mount lenses in other KronTalk forum threads and would likely expand my lens collection with some of these models whether or not my existing lenses will successfully adapt to the Chronos.  It's always nice to have a native fallback option in case my other lenses are needed elsewhere.

Lighting: I have plenty of lighting options including 18,000 watts of Tungsten, 1,000 watts of LED, and access to HMI fixtures.

At this point, what I probably need to do is find one of the Chronos cameras to borrow or rent that I can try out ... or see about an in-person demo.  I won't be able to attend NAB and visit the Kron Tech booth this year due to a prior commitment that week.  Worst case is that I table the decision until later.

Sigh... I would really like this to work.
Havent Read the whole thing in this thread, just read a bit here and there over the text, and had to write a reply just about your statement, that one could not mount 2/3" ENG- Glass on an Chronos....
Those 2/3" Lenses you have, are the perfect thing for the Chronos!
The Chronos has an 2/3" sensor, so you get the absolute Identical and Full Field of View (at Full Sensor Resolution, that is) as with your typical 2/3" Broadcast-Camera. Those Lenses Are ideal, since they provide Focal Length, which is Rare on FF or even s35-Glass (something like 12mm is an normal (50mm FF) Lens on the chronos...) and are Mostly Plenty Fast lenses for an quite Impressive Zoom-Range. And since The Chronos is basicaly an HD-Camera with an Full-Pixel Readout off of an RGB-Bayer Sensor, your Effective Resolution should be quite close to what those SD and HD Lenses Could provide in Detail and Sharpness!
I dont know about any Adapters specificaly for the Chrons Yet, but you can try to get Something like PL To C-Mount...
For those 2/3" mounts, im Not Quite Sure, if there Are adapters for CS-Mount...?
Its Mechanicaly possible and you got lot of space between camera and Lens for adapting.
I am 100% sure, those Lenses are possible and not too difficult to adapt to the Chronos!
For anything else Adapting is quite Straigth forward, for the most part, just buy C-Mount adapters, but if you dont find anyone/ anything else to mount these 2/3" Lenses on that Camera, then Contact me via PM, i will help you find a way, if you actualy are about to get an chronos. Really, Really want to see this.
Dont know, if it would make Sense for you, but some Good Normal or very Wide C-Mount Primes could be a nice and Helpfull addition to your collection of Lenses, especialy if you plan on using the Chronos regularly. Just dont buy overpriced and overhyped glass, there is plenty out there in this whole C-Mount-World.
Remember, that even your 18mm 2.8 will become something like an 70mm TELE Lens on an FF because of the rather small sensor. And that is, if you use full Resolution. If you want to go with even Higher Framerates and SD-Resolution for example, your effective Sensor Size will get even Smaller, thus your lenses will get even more Tele /longer. The Sensor Size of the Chronos is close to Standard 16mm Film-Camera Frame, when using its full Sensor/ full Resolution.
Those C-Mount Primes are also available in Very Fast Versions for most Focal Length, 1.4, f/1, and sometimes even Faster lenses are quite common. Zooms can be found as fast as f/1.2 and even f/1, so, if needed, this could be also nice.
For everything Tele you have a nice collection of Glass there which should be very useable and usefull on the Chronos!
If you really dont want to buy other Lenses, and you seem To have some Serious and complete kit there, think about geting a Speedbooster (like the Metabones 0,58x Canon to BMPCC) and adapt that to the Chronos. Would increase the effective sensor Size to something closer to s35mm Format and make those Lenses much more usefull.
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18k Tungsten is somewhat of an starting point, but depends on how big your Set is. If you want to know if you have enough light, take a Shot with an stills Camera at something like T/2 or close your Lens even more, and set the Camera to 1/3000s and Iso 160, that is about what you will see with the chronos when shooting 720pHD 1500fps (180° Shutter) while Trying to keep ImageQuality high. If you still get somewhat of an proper Exposure with those Settings on your Camera, your Lighting is Bright enough! If you still want to have more Depth of Field, you can try to stop your lens down even more, and see how far you could go bevore your image turns finaly Completely black :). If you are able to light your Set to get a proper exposure on some range of apertures on your Lens, or plan on shooting just wide open, you are ready for an highspeed-Camera :)
For Those LEDs and HMI´s: Just check if they will Flicker bevore relying on those! With these Big Tungsten Lights its mostly not a problem, but too small tungsten Lights will also produce Flicker. For LEDs and lot of other Lights, they sometimes tend to Flicker, if not meant to be used for Highspeed-Video!
But if you shoot 240fps there, its propably at least not the typical 50/ 60Hz Flicker....
Simlest check you could do: Put your Stills Camera on a Tripod and take a lot of stills (like at least more than 30) with the above mentioned Settings (most importantly 1/3000s or even Shorter, depending for what framerate you want to check flicker), then put them into AfterEffects (or whatever you be using over there), and cut them together like you would with stills for Stop motion. Play it back ---> See if the Lights Flicker...
If done Correctly, that should give you somewhat of an Preview/ Idea, if those Lights are Flickering. (only way to be sure is still to just test with an actual high-speed-Camera....).
And, while i think about it:
You could just shoot 240fps with 1/3000s and ISO 160 (Iso 160 is about as bright as The Lowest Gain-Setting on the Chronos)...Should give the Same Result.

Mario3005

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2019, 11:18:14 AM »
Would it be possible to connect an external ssd with a usb a (Camera) to usb c (ssd) cable without an additional power supply, if I use the USB/eSATA port?
Or is the operation without an additional Power supply for the ssd only possible, if I use an SATA/eSATA cable?

nik282000

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #19 on: February 17, 2019, 07:24:15 AM »
I can't find it now but there is a thread that mentions using an external drive enclosure with an SSD that is powered by the camera. SSDs are pretty light on power requirements, I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use one.

benp

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #20 on: May 28, 2019, 09:15:22 AM »
I've pre-ordered one of the 2.1 versions - color sensor and fully maxed out on all options.  Hooray!!!

I didn't add any accessories to my initial order, but I'm planning to add one of everything when the camera is ready to ship.  If anyone has thoughts on what accessories are 'must have' versus just occasionally handy, I'd appreciate your input.  Also, please pass along recommendations for any third-party bits that you find useful.

Quote
@Nikon1 if you dont find anyone/ anything else to mount these 2/3" Lenses on that Camera, then Contact me via PM, i will help you find a way,

I'll likely be reaching out to you (and anyone else with experience) for advice and options regarding adapting my inventory of lenses to the camera.  The Metabones x0.58 Speedbooster looks like a perfect addition for the new sensor.  It's getting the MFT part of the speedbooster to match up with the C-mount on the camera that I'm not sure about.

Does anyone know if the Blackmagic line of lens adapters (Nikon, Canon, PL for the Ursa Mini Pro can be put into service on the Chronos?  The adapting part of the process is beyond my understanding at this time.

For now, I'm working up a list of past, current, and potential clients who could use some high speed camera work.  I'm excited to get this camera and put it to use!

Buddlich

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #21 on: May 28, 2019, 11:20:28 AM »
Lights!!

If you don't already have some, buy the 200W Lights. One, ore better two.

I've always underestimated how much light you need for highspeed videos.
The 2.1 censor has bigger pixels but, more light is always better :D :D

Mario3005

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #22 on: May 28, 2019, 12:42:40 PM »
I can recommend the flashlight Acebeam x70. It is mobile and can always provide more than enough light with 60,000 lumens. With the Chronos 1.4 I always work with the Acebeam X70 and as a second light with the Acebeam X80. So I have a perfect illumination in the videos. :)

Nikon1

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Re: Workflow - Time
« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2019, 09:27:27 AM »
I've pre-ordered one of the 2.1 versions - color sensor and fully maxed out on all options.  Hooray!!!

I didn't add any accessories to my initial order, but I'm planning to add one of everything when the camera is ready to ship.  If anyone has thoughts on what accessories are 'must have' versus just occasionally handy, I'd appreciate your input.  Also, please pass along recommendations for any third-party bits that you find useful.

Quote
@Nikon1 if you dont find anyone/ anything else to mount these 2/3" Lenses on that Camera, then Contact me via PM, i will help you find a way,

I'll likely be reaching out to you (and anyone else with experience) for advice and options regarding adapting my inventory of lenses to the camera.  The Metabones x0.58 Speedbooster looks like a perfect addition for the new sensor.  It's getting the MFT part of the speedbooster to match up with the C-mount on the camera that I'm not sure about.

Does anyone know if the Blackmagic line of lens adapters (Nikon, Canon, PL for the Ursa Mini Pro can be put into service on the Chronos?  The adapting part of the process is beyond my understanding at this time.

For now, I'm working up a list of past, current, and potential clients who could use some high speed camera work.  I'm excited to get this camera and put it to use!
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Sorry, i am not online that often on the Forum lately. Has Been since like Forever, since i was on last time.
If you want to contact me, please use my Mail-Adress, i will send it via Personal Message. If you write here On the Forum, it could maybe take month for me to answer, cause i check on here that rarely.
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All Your Three Lensmounts you listed could be adaptable. But canon and PL-Mount would Propably require an costum made Adapter. For Nikon-F you could just buy one, since it is a Industry Standard Part.
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Also i noticed that the Krontech guys updated their Webpage Massively and also saw that insane Bullet-Time Rig thing!
Never Thought about something like this, or that anyone would be actually crazy enough to try build such a thing, but here it is.
I guess we have to prepare for some new stuff, nobody has seen bevore, because we have now affordable Highspeed-Cams which have good enough Image Quality to be useable for serious stuff.
This Thing is really madness in an good way!
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Hope someone of the Krontech guys Reads This:
Try Combining your Bullet-Time Rig with some Frame-Interpolating plugins, which are used for "Fake-Slow-Motion" where they use it to slow down the footage even more.
You could also use this (an Plugin like Twixtor for AfterEffects) to interpolate Frames when your Camera is "Moving" like on your rig to interpolate Camera-Positions between the Actual Cameras to get even Slower and much smoother Rotation.
From What i Heard and tried, Interpolating 1 to 3 Frames between the actually taken ones should be Possible with good Quality, which would make this some Wicked Setup not only in terms of resulting Framerate/ Slowness, but it should also be super Smooth!