Author Topic: new clueless 2.1 user  (Read 410 times)

prefetch

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new clueless 2.1 user
« on: February 04, 2020, 01:34:55 PM »
hi all.  i just received a 2.1 and since there is no documentation on this yet, i figured the forum might be a good place to ask some questions:

1) anyone have a link to a specific lens that would work with this?  links?  (i read the lens thread that has been posted, and i didn't find it to be new-user-friendly enough for me - i just got that i've got a 4 / 3" chip and so i need a lens with an image circle that doesn't cause vignetting.)

2) holy cow everything is dark.  like pitch black unless i point to a lit light bulb and then i see a very dim light bulb in a sea of blackness.  i went outside (it's very sunny today) and cranked up the gain to 24, and it's still pretty dark.  i suppose this is normal?  for indoor use, any recommendations on particular kinds of lights?

3) i suppose i need some kind of trigger to make this work.  any specific recommendation on a trigger?

« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:34:56 AM by tesla500 »

Nikon1

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2020, 01:50:57 PM »
hi all.  i just received a 2.1 and since there is no documentation on this yet, i figured the forum might be a good place to ask some questions:

1) anyone have a link to a specific lens that would work with this?  links?  (i read the lens thread that has been posted, and i didn't find it to be new-user-friendly enough for me - i just got that i've got a 4 / 3" chip and so i need a lens with an image circle that doesn't cause vignetting.)

2) holy cow everything is dark.  like pitch black unless i point to a lit light bulb and then i see a very dim light bulb in a sea of blackness.  i went outside (it's very sunny today) and cranked up the gain to 24, and it's still pretty dark.  i suppose this is normal?  for indoor use, any recommendations on particular kinds of lights?

3) i suppose i need some kind of trigger to make this work.  any specific recommendation on a trigger?
.
1: Well, there is no "best Lens" for Every application. Depends Very strong on what you want to shoot with the Camera. But in general get a lens with a big apperture, if possible, because Higspeed-Cameras need a lot of light, and it will also allow for More Blurred Background. Also pay attention to get an Lens, which doesn´t require electronic communication with the Camera itself, since this is not supported with the Chronos 1.4 and 2.1 Cameras. You need lenses, that will allow you to set Apperture, Focus (and Zoom, if it is a Zoom Lens) manually. Focal Length and Zoom vs Prime Lens depends very strong on the Usecase, as said bevore.
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2: What exposure time did you set the Camera to? also what kind of lens (Maximum Apperture/ Brand/ Model/ Adapter) are you using and what apperture is it set to? If Your apperture is closed down too much or your Exposure time is very low, even Bright Sunlight can Look extremely dark.
If you are Shooting at 1000 Frames Per Second you want your Exposuere-Time to be somewhere around 1 / 2000s or 0.5ms for usual.
Also make sure that your Lens is not "normaly closed" apperture. Some Lenses, when not connected to an propper Adapter or the apropriate Camera Body will just close the apperture down completely, leaving you with very little Light comming into the Camera, and therfor producing an very dark image!
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3: There is an Trigger switch Cable on the Krontech store, wich should work for most cases. They also have an Extention cord for that on the store. If you want something more custom, there is a thread somewhere on the Forum, about building one your own. Also there is another Thread here on the forum about Foot Trigger Swich Pedals and one about Remote Trigger via Network. I think those will cover your question very well!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:39:23 AM by tesla500 »

Nikon1

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2020, 01:58:23 PM »
3: Hope i understood the Question Right....
well, You can just Trigger The Camera with the big button on the Camera itself, if physicaly pushing the Button is possible. If you need to be triggering it remotely for some Reason, you will need an external Trigger of some sort.

prefetch

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2020, 09:57:20 PM »
thanks for the response.  i appreciate it.

so, i wasn't asking for the best lens, just any specific lens that would be a good match for the 2.1 - i understand that there's no such thing as 'best' for all applications.  i'm new, so i just wanted a specific recommendation for a generally useful lens that would be a reasonable match up for the 2.1

the current lens i'm using was just something i grabbed off an old nikon camera that i had in an old box.  the label says "AF-S NIKKOR 18-70mm 1:3.5-4.5G ED" so it's some kind of a zoom lens of sorts.  just looking at it, it clearly blocks the outside edges of the CCD, and so does the adapter that came with the 2.1 so it's certainly sub-optimal.

so i found a user manual for the 1.4 here: http://www.krontech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Chronos-1.4-Beta-0.3.0-User-Manual-r1.pdf which was really helpful.  the 2.1 didn't come with a manual, but it came with a piece of paper with URL on it that linked to a page with 3 youtube videos, 2 of which didn't work (some kind of playback error) so i was totally clueless about how to do anything.

i managed to set the FPS to 30, and in a room with moderate light at least i could see the room (albeit dimly) in the display.  when setting to 3 FPS and running a black calibration the screen seemed to just show a pink blotchy display, and wouldn't respond to a light (i shined a flashlight in the lens and nothing changed) so i rebooted it, and now it's stuck on a vertical striped display.  seems like it doesn't like low FPS.

i then changed it to 10 FPS and tried a black calibration and the display went black and won't respond to the flashlight at all.

i went to the util screen and reset the settings using "Remove User Calibration Data (Revert to Factory)", but that didn't seem to do anything.  all the settings appear to be the same, and the camera display is still blank.

so i switched to 24 FPS and recalibrated.  now it shows the flashlight, but it's all striped.  seems like a bad black calibration.  i tried again.  same thing.  it's kind of hard to tell when the calibration is done.  the words appear on the screen saying it's doing a calibration, then they go away after a few seconds, but i'm pretty sure it's still calibrating.  other times the words just flash for a fraction of a second.

now there are 2 big black splotches on the display that won't go away.  i think the CCD got saturated by the flashlight, and it's temporarily burned those pixels.  i hope a reboot fixes this.  black calibration didn't.

okay, rebooted it, now it's stuck like this:

<Image temporarily removed due to forum bug causing topic to come up blank>
Image attached

sigh.

well, i guess this is how it goes when you get an early-bird version.  i'm not complaining, but i've got a lot to figure out here.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:21:51 AM by tesla500 »

marcus

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2020, 03:34:45 AM »
This makes me a bit nervous reading this. Hopefully its easily fixable or just that you are new to the camera. My order is coming in less than 2 weeks. I will report how mine goes. I do know that in the past the Krontech team are extremely helpful with issues, so you should feel safe knowing that.

I'm surprised we still haven't seen any 2.1 footage on youtube / twitter or on the website. I'm sure they are just super busy putting these together but it does make me worry a little at times, its a huge purchase for me.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:41:05 AM by tesla500 »

Nikon1

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2020, 06:32:47 AM »
Well, it is a well Known bug, that most framerates below 60fps are Likely to cause Problems.
I would reccomend to use at Least 60fps or more with the Current Firmware.
.
For a General Lens Reccomendation i think a Zoom Lens would be very high up the List for me.
I would, because an Adapter is Included with the Camera, recommend Nikon Brand Lenses or other Brand Lenses with Nikon-F Mount, also because they allow for Full Control over all the Lens settings without the Need for Electronic Comiunication between Lens and Camera.
Something like an 18-200mm or even 18-270mm would be very usefull, since it will allow you to cover a wide Zoom Range. Those Lenses Are Cheap, but are "Small" Apperture, But they will allow you to get an image, and are Very Flexible in terms of Zoom.
Next up would be an fast 50mm Lens, or an Fast 35mm Lens, since those are Pretty common and are not too expensive also.
.
More Premium Options would include Faster Zoom Lenses with Appertures of 2.8 and Faster, but those get expensive Quickly.
Also wide-Angle-Prime Lenses could be usefull in some Cases.
But my general Reccomendation: get A Zoom First, f / 2.8 or faster if Possible, to cover some Zoom Range.
If you dont have tons of light, get a Prime with f / 1.8 or even 1.4 or faster.
Maybe also get both, depends on your usecase and Butget.
Also Note, that older Lenses (Vintage ect.) Will usualy not perform Best Wide open, and need to be stoped down to perform at its best. Newer Lenses are mostly usable wide open.
.
I Just Recently reccomended Some Lenses to Marcus, maybe he can share his expirience with those, when his camera arrives.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:42:00 AM by tesla500 »

Nikon1

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2020, 06:40:51 AM »
thanks for the response.  i appreciate it.

so, i wasn't asking for the best lens, just any specific lens that would be a good match for the 2.1 - i understand that there's no such thing as 'best' for all applications.  i'm new, so i just wanted a specific recommendation for a generally useful lens that would be a reasonable match up for the 2.1

the current lens i'm using was just something i grabbed off an old nikon camera that i had in an old box.  the label says "AF-S NIKKOR 18-70mm 1:3.5-4.5G ED" so it's some kind of a zoom lens of sorts.  just looking at it, it clearly blocks the outside edges of the CCD, and so does the adapter that came with the 2.1 so it's certainly sub-optimal.

so i found a user manual for the 1.4 here: http://www.krontech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Chronos-1.4-Beta-0.3.0-User-Manual-r1.pdf which was really helpful.  the 2.1 didn't come with a manual, but it came with a piece of paper with URL on it that linked to a page with 3 youtube videos, 2 of which didn't work (some kind of playback error) so i was totally clueless about how to do anything.

i managed to set the FPS to 30, and in a room with moderate light at least i could see the room (albeit dimly) in the display.  when setting to 3 FPS and running a black calibration the screen seemed to just show a pink blotchy display, and wouldn't respond to a light (i shined a flashlight in the lens and nothing changed) so i rebooted it, and now it's stuck on a vertical striped display.  seems like it doesn't like low FPS.

i then changed it to 10 FPS and tried a black calibration and the display went black and won't respond to the flashlight at all.

i went to the util screen and reset the settings using "Remove User Calibration Data (Revert to Factory)", but that didn't seem to do anything.  all the settings appear to be the same, and the camera display is still blank.

so i switched to 24 FPS and recalibrated.  now it shows the flashlight, but it's all striped.  seems like a bad black calibration.  i tried again.  same thing.  it's kind of hard to tell when the calibration is done.  the words appear on the screen saying it's doing a calibration, then they go away after a few seconds, but i'm pretty sure it's still calibrating.  other times the words just flash for a fraction of a second.

now there are 2 big black splotches on the display that won't go away.  i think the CCD got saturated by the flashlight, and it's temporarily burned those pixels.  i hope a reboot fixes this.  black calibration didn't.

okay, rebooted it, now it's stuck like this:


sigh.

well, i guess this is how it goes when you get an early-bird version.  i'm not complaining, but i've got a lot to figure out here.
Looked closer at your Image you uploaded to show the bug, and was wondering, why it is set to 1280 x 1024 px?
Is this actually an 2.1 Chronos or an 1.4 One? Or is there any other Reason for this resolution?
If you really have an 2.1 Chronos, Try 1920 x 1080px and use 60 fps or more.
Shutter is set Correctly in this Image, 359° or 1 / 30sek is as high / Bright as it will get. Maybe it just does not like the Low Framerate. I Mean it is an Highspeed-Camera after all.... This Thing just wants to go F A S T!   ;)
.
Also still wondering, what kind of lens you use right now to test this?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:43:39 AM by tesla500 »

prefetch

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2020, 07:03:27 AM »
>Also still wondering, what kind of lens you use right now to test this?

"AF-S NIKKOR 18-70mm 1:3.5-4.5G ED"

>Is this actually an 2.1 Chronos or an 1.4 One? Or is there any other Reason for this resolution?

it's a 2.1.  i just set it at the lower resolution to try things out and to see if i could actually see anything besides darkness on the display.  i figured setting it at 30 fps would be more like a regular video camera and i should be able to see something.  i tried lots of different resolution and different frame rates.  seems very buggy.

thanks for the lens recommendations.

Nikon1

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2020, 07:15:38 AM »
>Also still wondering, what kind of lens you use right now to test this?

"AF-S NIKKOR 18-70mm 1:3.5-4.5G ED"

>Is this actually an 2.1 Chronos or an 1.4 One? Or is there any other Reason for this resolution?

it's a 2.1.  i just set it at the lower resolution to try things out and to see if i could actually see anything besides darkness on the display.  i figured setting it at 30 fps would be more like a regular video camera and i should be able to see something.  i tried lots of different resolution and different frame rates.  seems very buggy.

thanks for the lens recommendations.
Ok, i am Actually stupid to not realize this Quicker...
I am pretty sure, that your dark image problem Comes from the Adapter.
I made an very Quick Video (attachment to the Post), Trying to show, what the Problem is.
The Apperture on the Nikon Lenses is Controled via an Little Metall Tab, which protrudes from the Mount. Some Adapters Have a Mechanism (Like The Adapter Shown In my Video) to Move This Tab and with that control the Apperture of the Lens.
I assumed, the Adapter Shipped With the 2.1 Chronos would be of this kind. But i checked, and it turns Out, that this is one of the Nikon-Adapters which does not have apperture Control. So your Lens will always be Stuck on f / 22 (Smallest Possible Apperture of the Lens!).
So, you either Need to find an Other Adapter, which has Apperture Control built in, or you could use this very "Quick and Dirty" Hack, i show in the end of the Video. Just put *SOMETHING* there, to always keep that Tab on the "Apperture Open" Side.
I used Some Foam/ Rubber Stuff here, but Paper or Tape Will also work. Used this and worse Tricks on pretty serious Projects, and it does actually work. Just Make sure, that whatever you put there wont Interfere with anything on the Adapter/ Mount and make Sure, not to put it in to deep, so you can get it out again. If its in too deep, its kind of a Pain to get back out! also Make Sure to remember to remove this, bevore mounting it back onto your Nikon Camera!
.
BTW: Use this information on you own risk...
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:44:41 AM by tesla500 »

prefetch

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2020, 12:54:56 PM »
that really helped a lot.  thanks for posting the video.  as soon as i rigged the aperture to stay open, the darkness issue went away.  now i can record indoors in regular light (it still is crappy, and you really need bright lights) but at least i can see things on the display!

the weird stripe issue went away, but it seems like there are just some bugs when using lower FPS numbers that need to get worked out.

i recorded some water dripping from a faucet and it looked pretty bad - it was too dark, and it was kind of blurry and grainy.  obviously i need more light, and i should also do a black calibration and also figure out how to focus.  it's too early to tell how the quality of the camera is until i get those basic things sorted out.

anyway, thanks again for your help!

Nikon1

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2020, 11:15:10 AM »
that really helped a lot.  thanks for posting the video.  as soon as i rigged the aperture to stay open, the darkness issue went away.  now i can record indoors in regular light (it still is crappy, and you really need bright lights) but at least i can see things on the display!

the weird stripe issue went away, but it seems like there are just some bugs when using lower FPS numbers that need to get worked out.

i recorded some water dripping from a faucet and it looked pretty bad - it was too dark, and it was kind of blurry and grainy.  obviously i need more light, and i should also do a black calibration and also figure out how to focus.  it's too early to tell how the quality of the camera is until i get those basic things sorted out.

anyway, thanks again for your help!
Also keep in Mind, that this lens is not good for anything but Daylight (in my opinion).
It has an rather Small apperture of f / 3.5 at Wide Zoom Setting and f / 5.6 Zoomed in.
Most Prime Lenses would have at least f / 2 or something like that, which is 8x times More Light than Zoomed in with this Lens!
The Grain and Crappy image Quality most likely come from that, and the Lens itself also not beeing Worldclass Sharpness and so on...
But still, try to get one Somewhat reasonable shot and upload it here or in the Footage Thread, I think a lot of people would be very thankfull for that.
That would make you officaly the first one, to upload Chronos 2.1 Footage, apart from The Demo Reel and A few short clips from BeyondThePress Chanel, where they used the 2.1 as an secondary camera to show off their Chronos Ring Setup!
« Last Edit: February 07, 2020, 12:46:31 AM by tesla500 »

skronstein

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Re: new clueless 2.1 user
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2020, 08:02:11 PM »
so i found a user manual for the 1.4 here: http://www.krontech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Chronos-1.4-Beta-0.3.0-User-Manual-r1.pdf which was really helpful.  the 2.1 didn't come with a manual, but it came with a piece of paper with URL on it that linked to a page with 3 youtube videos, 2 of which didn't work (some kind of playback error) so i was totally clueless about how to do anything.

Here's the latest version of the 1.4 manual:
https://www.krontech.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Chronos-1.4-v0.3.2-User-Manual-rev2.pdf
We are working on a manual for the 2.1, but the only part that will change significantly between the two is the Record Rates and Times tables near the back of the manual.

Also, what page did that piece of paper link to?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2020, 08:23:01 PM by skronstein »