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Messages - mklinger

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1
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: November 04, 2021, 08:04:04 AM »

No problem!  I look forward to seeing your results and how well it works for you (and others).

Thanks!

Marc


Hello everyone, here are the results for the 1.4 LUT mklinger provided

Video 1 - Edited with the 2.1 LUT
https://youtu.be/hk574eqvOSc

Video 1 - Edited with the 1.4 LUT
https://youtu.be/qAiHIHU5jls

Video 2 - Edited with the 2.1 LUT
https://youtu.be/ushuhDhV7P0

Video 2 - Edited with the 1.4 LUT
https://youtu.be/49S8JEYKECo

Video 3 - Edited with the 2.1 LUT
https://youtu.be/wLA-mYE9scc

Video 3 - Edited with the 1.4 LUT
https://youtu.be/sX1ivF2zGCA

Other video edited with no LUT corrections, I did color correction manually, just for comparison
https://youtu.be/_Jvbliyt4As

My thoughts, first a huge thanks to Marc for the LUT and patience explaining everything.

I think it is a huge impromevent from where I was on 0.7.0 FW without LUT adjustments, or using the 2.1 LUT (strong red tint), I'm still figuring out how to properly correct everything, it's hard, sometimes I still tend to be a little heavy on some color tints (a little bit too green for now), and it is very monitor dependent (I'll have my 2 monitors color corrected as soon as possible), but I'll get there.

Really happy with my progress so far, two years and I learn tons everytime I go out to shoot something, thanks everyone for the help here!!! The LUT will definitely help, I'll stay on this FW since it's way faster on save times...

PS. sorry for the videos, mainly out of focus and just straight 1000fps played back at 30fps very slow and boring stuff lol

Your footage is looking pretty good.  Definitely don't bother with trying to use the 2.1 LUT with your 1.4.  That will just cause you more headaches than it's worth.

Keep an eye on exposure.  Your video 1 and 2 look pretty good, but #3 looks a bit underexposed (you should be able to boost this example in post without too much problem).  Once you get the colors dialed in to exactly what you want, don't be afraid to boost the saturation a tiny bit to make the video "pop" more.

Overall, it's looking good.  Good luck with your future work and I'm glad I could help!

Marc

2
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: November 02, 2021, 02:58:07 PM »

Thank you Marc!

I just downloaded the LUT, will try on some old data I kept on my SSD for this... I'll let you know how it goes, perhaps I have my own old edits for the same footage to compare!!

Again, thanks so much for the help!!!

No problem!  I look forward to seeing your results and how well it works for you (and others).

Thanks!

Marc

3
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: November 02, 2021, 02:52:27 PM »
User muringuets was able to send me some sample Cinema DNG output from his Chronos 1.4 shooting a color target and I was able to take a stab at creating a custom LUT using DaVinci Resolve.

It's not perfect, but it should be a very good starting point, especially for daylight work.

You can download the LUT here:

https://klingerphotography.com/Chronos14/Chronos14_v7_daylight.cube   

I think all you need to do is drop it in your DaVinci Resolve LUT folder.  On my machine that is here:

C:\ProgramData\Blackmagic Design\DaVinci Resolve\Support\LUT

Below you can see the before and after version of the color chart when the LUT is applied.

Let me know what you think and if this is useful for folks with a Chronos 1.4 trying to shoot in Cinema DNG with V7 of the software.

Thanks!

Marc

4
Software Dev / Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« on: October 23, 2021, 05:39:13 AM »
I have requested a full datasheet from Luxima.  I'll be curious to read some of the actual details and limitation of the sensor.   I would bet the 700k FPS figure is something crazy like 32x8 pixels and the rest of the hardware would need to be specially configured, but the datasheet should spell that out.  Because the Chronos 1.4 can actually do ~110k FPS, my guess is that the image overhead for those kinds of speeds would also be possible on the 2.1 as the rest of the hardware is essentially (maybe exactly) identical.

A quick check of the H.264 codec wiki makes it seem that very small vertical resolutions should be possible, but it's extremely likely that the library they are using on the Chronos has a limit.  H.264 is a very complex codec and is really optimized for large resolutions and block sizes.  Just having raw image support at these experimental resolutions would be totally acceptable to me, but they might not want to do that.  Personally, I never use the H.264 output and always using DNG for maximum quality.

I have quite a bit of software development background and am very comfortable reading their code, but it's complex not because the code is complex, it's complex because the algorithms implemented to handle the hardware are complex.

Once I see the datasheet, I may make a copy of the firmware and start playing around with it for fun.
Any Progress / Updates on the 2.1 Datasheet /-mod?

Luxima did send me the full data sheet on the sensor.  There were some really interesting things in there that I learned, but nothing jumped out that would allow for < 96 pixel height and faster speeds.  I think the sensor can do it, but it's probably not practical.  Really, with a base ISO of around 500, it would be extremely challenging to get enough light for anything more than it currently does.  Even with direct sunlight, that is only enough for about 10000-20000 fps.  Anything faster than that, you are pushing the noise levels pretty high and using artificial lights to get brighter need to be so close, you run into heat issues.  I contend that this camera is really the best option for 1000-5000 fps, and pretty good from 5000-10000 fps.  If you really need to go faster with high quality, you'll have to step up to a Phantom. 

A couple interesting things I did learn from the datasheet.  The sensor supports up to 8 regions of interest, meaning separate windows that can capture at the same time and they can all be different sizes.  This shows its roots in assembly line machine vision tasks and that would be something that could be useful in those applications.

The biggest news for me was that I saw that the LUX2100 supports pixel binning up to 2x2.  That is a way to combine the light gathering of multiple pixels to gain sensitivity with the tradeoff being a loss of native resolution.  I was really interested in this as it could potentially be a way to get a much more sensitive sensor.  Various cameras like some Phantoms can do that quite effectively.

When I reached out to the Krontech folks asking about it, they confirmed that the LUX2100 is ALREADY using 2x2 pixel binning and that is in fact, just a LUX8M (4K 250 fps) sensor with pixel binning turned on and a different Bayer filter attached to the front.  I speculated that the monochrome version of the Chronos 2.1 could potentially shoot 4K at 250 (as there is no Bayer filter at all installed), and they agreed, but they aren't currently working on that as the market for that would be small.  I thought it was very interesting though.  This makes a lot of sense if you read Luxima's product page carefully:

https://www.luxima.com/imageSensorProducts.html

The LUX8M and LUX2100 look identical and really are for the most part.  Very clever of them!


I am extremely happy with the performance I'm getting in the ~3000-3500 fps range where my primary use case lives and with the new firmware, things are looking good across pretty much the entire range of camera.

5
According to the spec sheet, the Chronos 1.4 can record with a shutter speed of up to 1/1000000s.  That is very different from the frame rate.  You would set the desired resolution and frame rate, then adjust the shutter angle to achieve these super fast shutter speeds.  The faster the shutter, the less light is available for exposure.

That being said, I really doubt you'll need to worry about adding ND filters to lower the amount of light hitting the sensor.  Although if you really want to go that route, it should be easy to add these kinds of physical ND filters to any kind of lens you are using.  At the very extreme, you could even mount the camera behind something like a welder's shield. 

I would recommend just playing with the shutter angle and that will most likely get a nice exposure even with a very bright source like a rocket.

If you're not familiar with how shutter angle works, 360 deg is "wide open" and that means, say you are shooting at 1000 fps, your shutter speed will be 1/1000s.  General rule of thumb is to try for around 180 deg shutter for a "pleasing" amount of motion blur.  That means at 180 deg, it would mean 1/(360/180) * 1000 fps) or 1/2000s shutter speed.  Crank the angle down to 10 degrees for example and you'd be at 1/(360/10) * 1000 fps) or 1/36000s shutter speed.  A 1 degree shutter would mean 1/360000s shutter speed, etc.


6
Chronos User Discussion / Re: Footage feedback
« on: September 29, 2021, 09:38:11 AM »
1. can anybody tell me why my footage has that small amount of blinking in the colored area, especially in red?

2. Why did this rolling shutter happen?

Hi, I agree with Nikon1.  What you are seeing, especially with the fruit clip is just digital noise in the red channel probably from boosting the saturation a bit too much and it's getting blown out.  You have to be very careful with these cameras as they don't have the same dynamic range as you'd be used to with normal video cameras or DLSRs.  I would recommend shooting in Cinema DNG for best possible dynamic range and being careful not to blow out any of the colors in post.

FWIW, both the Chronos 1.4 and 2.1 use a global shutter sensor, so "rolling shutter" is not a possible artifact with these cameras. 

7
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 27, 2021, 09:07:23 AM »
Thank you mklinger for the help...

I'll buy a color calibration chart, I'll post here when it arrives...

Sounds good, I'm happy to help.  When you shoot the color chart, try to make it fill up a majority of the frame if possible.

8
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 27, 2021, 07:35:55 AM »
Thanks mklinger

I'll shoot this weekend and I'll report back!!

Hi muringuets, remember, this LUT was designed for the Chronos 2.1.  I think you mentioned you had a 1.4.  It may work well on those DNG files, but honestly, I doubt it...

Someone needs to do the same exercise with a 1.4 camera and 0.7 to provide a similar LUT.


I have the exact same "washed out" colours as your comparison image, figured I should try your LUT, I knew it probably would not work, but I tried anyway... As you might expect, results were not good...

Feeling a bit frustrated now, no matter how much I try, I can't bring the colors back on my footage, still washed out colours, otherwise too much green and too much red, no vibrance... Boy this is hard hehe

Rolling back to 0.6.0 until some LUTs surface, or at least until I can figure out how to properly extract the correct colors from the footage...

Do you have a color chart?  If you can shoot it with 5600K lights (or outside) as evenly as possible and as well exposed as possible, post the DNG and I'll see if I can create a LUT from it.

Also post a couple DNG images from actual shots you are trying to color correct so I can fine tune the LUT attempt if possible.

9
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 27, 2021, 07:31:50 AM »
Thanks mklinger

I'll shoot this weekend and I'll report back!!

Hi muringuets, remember, this LUT was designed for the Chronos 2.1.  I think you mentioned you had a 1.4.  It may work well on those DNG files, but honestly, I doubt it...

Someone needs to do the same exercise with a 1.4 camera and 0.7 to provide a similar LUT.


I have the exact same "washed out" colours as your comparison image, figured I should try your LUT, I knew it probably would not work, but I tried anyway... As you might expect, results were not good...

Feeling a bit frustrated now, no matter how much I try, I can't bring the colors back on my footage, still washed out colours, otherwise too much green and too much red, no vibrance... Boy this is hard hehe

Rolling back to 0.6.0 until some LUTs surface, or at least until I can figure out how to properly extract the correct colors from the footage...

Do you have a color chart?  If you can shoot it with 5600K lights (or outside) as evenly as possible and as well exposed as possible, post the DNG and I'll see if I can create a LUT from it.

10
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 22, 2021, 05:42:37 AM »
Thanks mklinger

I'll shoot this weekend and I'll report back!!

Hi muringuets, remember, this LUT was designed for the Chronos 2.1.  I think you mentioned you had a 1.4.  It may work well on those DNG files, but honestly, I doubt it...

Someone needs to do the same exercise with a 1.4 camera and 0.7 to provide a similar LUT.

11
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 21, 2021, 11:42:00 AM »
Hi everyone, 

I recently took the time to try and refine my Chronos 2.1 DaVinci Resolve LUT by lighting my color chart with 2 Godox VL300 5600K lights and spending some time to really dial in the colors and white balance.

I am pretty happy with the results and thought I'd share my LUT with the wider community if anyone would like to try it out.  It should be a decent starting point for indoor controlled lighting at 5600K or daylight shooting.

You can download the LUT here:

https://klingerphotography.com/Chronos21/Chronos21_v7_Release_5600K_v3.cube_2.frame.cube

I think all you need to do is drop it in your DaVinci Resolve LUT folder.  On my machine that is here:

C:\ProgramData\Blackmagic Design\DaVinci Resolve\Support\LUT


What the images below show are the before and after of the color chart under controlled lighting, and then just a quick outdoor shot under direct sunlight with the only correction being applying the attached LUT.

Hopefully this helps some folks out who are struggling to get decent color with Cinema DNG files from the Chronos 2.1.

I'm using the paid "Studio" version of Resolve.  I'm pretty sure this will work with the free version and probably with other NLE programs like Premiere, Final Cut, etc., but I haven't tried any of those packages.

Thanks!

Marc

12
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 09, 2021, 06:12:12 AM »
Hello and thanks for your replies. I fully understand the advantages of RAW over H264, that's not my problem. I am just wondering where the "default" look of the RAW is created.

Now if I get it right, the in camera color Matrix is applied to H264 only, right?

In DaVinci you have that color matching tool. With this you can film the color cards you bought for 200$ and then make DaVinci match the footage the color card. As shown here, right?

Now would it be possible to film the color card with a standard 5.600k light and then match this footage min DaVindi to the color card, and boom, one would have a sharable algorithm that could be posted here? This would at least give a good starting point, no?

Yes, exactly!  We are waiting for the Kron folks to create and share the "official" LUT.

I haven't had a chance to spend enough time with 0.7 yet to dial in a LUT with my 5600K lights, but I (or anyone) could certainly share DaVinci LUTs once created for a good starting point.  It's on my to-do list :)

13
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 09, 2021, 04:58:58 AM »
Very impressive! And very nice color!

Actually I don't understand how the color progress works. I wonder if a) the camera itself does have a LUT that is applied to the RAW internally or if b) the DNG really are absolutely unprocessed data and the LUT has to be applied in post?

If a): As the colors changed with the software version, there has to be some algorithm working in camera, right? If so: which? Is this the color Matrix?

If b): Does one have to develop sort of default setting for Adobe RAW or DaVinci then?

Sorry for these beginners questions, I never digged into all that...

Hi clkdiv,

I'm not 100% sure if DNG is completely unprocessed in the camera, but it certainly behaves similarly to Log and RAW formats from other video cameras which have very little or no processing.

The benefits of using DNG over H.264 are a higher color bit depth, meaning more color information is actually stored, which typically means more dynamic range is possible.  There are also no compression artifacts from the H.264 process itself, meaning you can wait until the very last step in your process to create a compressed video file for YouTube or whatever.  This is ideal if you do any post processing with the file.

Regarding your second question, yes, there really needs to be a default LUT that gets applied in post that goes from Cinema DNG to Rec709.  You need this LUT for every different lighting condition, but having a standard one for daylight would be very useful.  I suggested to the Kron folks that they publish a default LUT, and they are working towards that, but don't have one yet.  Having a proper color chart and some knowledge how to use it allows users to create these on their own and get really good results (like takashima's video above).

The general process is you shoot a video of just the color chart in your lighting conditions.  You color correct that video using a VectorScope (in software) based on the very objective "perfect" colors on the chart (which is why those charts cost $100+).  You then create a custom LUT that gets you the proper transformation in those conditions (this step is trivial in DaVinci Resolve).  Then, you can shoot anything else in those conditions and just apply that previous LUT and it'll get you there!

At this point, for 0.7 on a Chronos 2.1, if you don't have a color chart, I would probably stick to shooting H.264 for now - but even that needs some adjustment to get proper colors, but not nearly as much and you can get reasonable results with the basic adjustments like temp/tint/saturation.

14
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 09, 2021, 04:27:47 AM »
Hi, everyone.

I want to shoot with Cinema DNG with Chronos 2.1 Ver.0.7.0.
But I couldn't get the right color!
I searched for a solution for a while, finaly, I reached to the X-rite ColorChecker Passport 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2BWQRJbv8&t
↑Sorry, this is japanese clip.

I hesitated to pay close to $ 200 for this color chart, but the results were very very good. I wanted this color! I was finally able to reach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k7MYPWbIw&t
Thank you!

Hi Takashima, congratulations on your color results, they look fantastic! 

It was also difficult for me to initially justify the cost of a color chart, but it's really a necessary tool if you are serious about the final results.

I look forward to seeing more of your videos!

15
Software Dev / Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« on: September 08, 2021, 07:13:05 AM »
I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

One quick thing, double check that you updated all the way to version 0.7.  The pink/magenta cast was a big problem with 0.6 but I found it was pretty much completely fixed in 0.7 except for very high gain situations at low resolutions. 

If you were at version 0.5, I'm not sure if the camera would auto-update all the way to 0.7, or if you need to update to 0.6 first.  Anyway, before you pull your hair out too much, re-check the software version on the camera to make sure it is indeed 0.7 especially if you came from 0.5.

I need to check the release 0.7 in case they changed something drastic from the alpha 0.7 I was testing, but as you can see from this video, the pink cast was a major problem with v6 and almost completely fixed with v7 in my experience:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k

Hi mklinger, I did update correctly from 0.6.0 to 0.7.0, checked and it is working properly...

I watched your video about 0.7 alpha testing, and the other one you suggested about color correcting log videos. I'm new to this video editing and professional tools and stuff, I'd say I'm just used to the previous method of color correcting and editing videos. I own the 1.4 camera for about 2 years now, and it took me a while to get good results out of it, I was happy (not in the saving speed department, but it's okay), it's just another step that I'll have to conquer on this long learning curve, but I'll get there...

I have just one comment about all this, you're using the 2.1 camera, and I see a lot of posts around here where you guys have problems with this version (purple/magenta tint, lower resolutions problems, banding, etc), but I'd like to see some tests made on the 1.4 version, just to make sure the software is developing in a way older cameras are getting improved too, because if they don't, I might as well stay on and older software version...

Anyway, I understand the importance of this version, and the improvements you're getting on your camera, but comparing my footages on 0.6.0 and 0.7.0 I can't really see a lot of improvements, it's the other way around... And I say this mainly analising footage from open areas, without aditional lights, just regular sun light (perhaps too little lights, but that's what I have to work with)...

Anyway, seems like a good time to upgrade my camera...

Ahh, I didn't realize you were using a Chronos 1.4.  It's my understanding that that camera has not had nearly the same image quality issues as the 2.1, at least not since its early days.  The 2.1 has been almost unusable under certain conditions until this release, so it's a big deal for that camera.

I have no idea how 0.7 works compared to 0.6 on a Chronos 1.4.  There probably isn't much image quality difference as it was already really good, from the examples I see (I don't own one).  Maybe the biggest reason for you to upgrade would be the saving speed increase, but if you are happy with the earlier version work flow, it might not be worth it.




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