Author Topic: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental  (Read 6197 times)

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2021, 02:32:12 PM »
Some Flowrate Testing bevore Soldering. Current Flowrate with the Straight Tube System is 0,9L/min, which will propably go down a bit when all the 90 Bends are added into the Path of the Water cause increased Flow Resistance.
 .
 Can get Inflow Temperature down to around 13C, but start to get some Condensation Starting from 15 down on some Parts, so for Test use inside the Camera i will either need to stay above 15C for the Water Input or do some Air drying or something (or get Ambient Temperature lower, which would also eliminate Risk of Condensation). Still waiting for the Resistor to arrive, to test with an known constant Heat input, but i got a good feeling about the Thermal performance overall.
 .
 If it turns out that this will not be able to handle the 36W Heat input all that well, i can still use Multiple Water Channels inside the Cooler and Double the Flowrate (using them in parallel), which should theoretically almost double Cooling Performance. Temperature Target for this test setup would be slightly Sub-Ambient Temperatures on the Sensor itself, so i dont need to deal with Condensation / insulating the Electronics against water, which should be possible to do with this Cooler design.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #16 on: January 06, 2021, 01:04:44 PM »
Resistor arrived, and cooler seems to hadle the Heat pretty well. Have no propper Setup for a Temp Readout on this cooler Block, but it feels somewhat still cold to the Touch, even after like 30Min running, i would assume Block Temp at around 25C (at 13,4C Water Temp), so successfull Test. Means This should easily be able to handle the Heat output from the Sensor even with only a Single Brass inlet.

SergeyKashin

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
    • View Profile
    • https://www.instagram.com/sergey.kashin/
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2021, 10:57:13 AM »
Watching the video on YouTube, I realized that on the radiator that cools the camera sensor, it is flat without ribs that would help the sensor to cool more intensively. Now in the 3D program I tried to develop external cooling for the camera with a more powerful cooler (4000 rpm 60 * 60 * 15mm) with the installation of a dust filter and cooler protection. But the question arose of how you can add fins to this radiator or how you can replace it with the same size but with fins
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 03:13:58 PM by SergeyKashin »

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2021, 04:18:09 PM »
Watching the video on YouTube, I realized that on the radiator that cools the camera sensor, it is flat without ribs that would help the sensor to cool more intensively. Now in the 3D program I tried to develop external cooling for the camera with a more powerful cooler (4000 rpm 60 * 60 * 15mm) with the installation of a dust filter and cooler protection. But the question arose of how you can add fins to this radiator or how you can replace it with the same size but with fins
https://vk.cc/bX9SD0

 .
 I am also still trying to figure out how to actually make this a practical cooling solution for daily use. My current best bet would be 3mm Heatpipes, a somewhat modified Cooler Block ( a bit "fatter" cooler block with thinner Thermal pads, maybe also larger in size with fins. And yes, fins will fit. Not with the Same Size block tho, needs to be larger, but there is quite some Empty space for that between the Circut boards, needs to be an Flat cooler) with two 3mm Heatpipes ( The ones i got are rated for 18W Heat load at 70C) which will connect to some kind of External Contact surface which i want to mount on the Bottom Of the Camera like a camera cage. Doesnt need to be huge, can have a rater Small footprint while still allowing access to the Battery if needed. To this Outside Copper Surface i will be able to mount Air coolers or Waterblocks, even Peltier modules would then be possible, because outside the Camera i will have plenty of space, but will still be able to get the external more beefy cooling solution off quickly if i need a smaller Camera to move very Quickly when shooting (without first needing to open the Camera and Replacing the Cooling block on location).  .
 This is so far the most promising idea, because it still is a "hybrid" approach to cooling, meaning i can go full Watercooled or add any very beefy external cooler of any kind very easily, but the Camera will still work as-is as a Standalone Unit if needed (as the block itself still does the same work as bevore and the Heatpipes wont obstruct the usual cooling in any way, if any they improove heat transfer across the Block and add surface Aera), also its a drop-in replacement which doesnt need extensive permanent modification of the Camera itself and can be easily reverted to standard configuration.
 Its also is a very capeable cooling solution at the Same time, it should be able to get the sensor quite a bit down in temperature if not even pretty close to Room Temp (if the Heatpipes still can transfer enough power at those Temps and you add an Waterblock or Peltier Module).
 .
 Now for your idea, i also allready tried this ( if i understand correctly you are trying to make a shroud for the front air intake holes to push More air in with an powerfull fan), force feeding the Camera with more air, and it does improove Cooling, yes, but not by all that much. You can only get so much air inside, and at a certain point, the Internal Fan will even start to limit the amout of air you can Push through. so if you can Manage to get some Serious increase over the Current amount of Airflow (like order of magnitude kind of increase, which would most likely need the internal fan to be removed and also some way of preventing the air from exiting through the Bottom intake holes, by either a second intake Shroud or closing it), it might be worth a try and can actually improove Sensor Temperatures by quite a bit, but with only a single fan i assume it would propably be hardly noticeable. For reference, i used an 14krpm 40x40x30 Server fan, which pushes some Serious air and also has plenty of Air pressure, not sure which exact fan you are planing on using, but even with that one i could only get like 2 to 4C improovement (didnt make a fancy shroud, to be fair, had a way more sketchy setup), and i am not sure if that would be worth it for me, camera sounding like an actuall Jet Engine (this small server fan is really loud, against this one, even the Stock Chronos fan seems very reasonable and quiet. https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=521.msg3922#msg3922 ). Now 2 to 4 C is still something, but if i would do something like this i would maybe go with an even More Powerfull Fan to make the Effort at least worth it, like some of the bigger server Fans, which can push quite some air, those could get the Camera down quite a bit in temps.
 .
 In terms of external cooling solutions involving air, i guess easiest and most effective one would be to just get yourself one of those Moveable air-conditioner Units and making some kind of "Blimp" for the Chronos, but not for Noise like in the old days, but as an Air Shroud, in which you would feed the Air-Conditioner Air, going at full blast, putting out 15C or Colder air. (for Reference: https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=arri%2Bblimp ). I think this would be way more effective than your idea, considering cooling solutions which wouldnt need to fumble with the cameras internals. Because a thing i also didnt understand at first, the Copper Cooler experiment helped me a lot to understand it better, is how the current Thermal design actually works. This Small Cooler Block made from Aluminum attached to the sensor isnt really meant to dissapate all that much heat directly into the Air, but rather to transfer it into the Metal Case/ Body of the Camera, and the Fan itself seemingly doesnt mainly cool the Sensor itself. The Fan (as far as i understand it and how it actually seems to work in the end, not absolutely sure about the intentions when designing the Thermal solution for this Camera) seems to mainly directly cool all the other internal Components which are not connected to the Case by contact pads or heatsinks, and at the same time provides some base forced Airflow through the Case, which in turn happens to Cool the Case down a bit. So actually this is more of a passive Cooling solution (talking about the Cooling for the Sensor itself) than an Active one, because it seems that for extended runtime of the Camera (everything longer than 30 or 60 Minutes), when the Thermal Mass of the camera reached thermal Equilibrium, the Camera outer Surface seems to do quite some of the Cooling, if not the mayor part of it. The Fan sure helps to cool the Metal of the Camera Case down a bit, because any kind of Airflow will massively improove cooling in such a situation, but considering all of the above said things about the current thermal design of the Camera, i propably wouldnt go and try to just push more air through the airpath inside. The current airflow with the Stock fan is somewhat at a sweetspot, where it still does help quite a bit with cooling, but doesnt need utter overkill Fans and Shrouds, from this point on, you will allways need to up your Airflow Way more to still see little improovements in cooling for the Internal Airflow. As you allready said, when pushing those amounts of air, as would be needed to considerably lower Sensor Temps from just that, dust buildup would propably become an actuall problem. Because the Small Sensor Cooler block itself doesnt really do all that much in terms of Air Cooling surface, might as well cool the outside of the Case better with additional fans or bolt some heatsinks onto the outside. Pushing more air through the Camera will keep the Sensor Cooler for the first 5 Minutes of use, but for longer runtimes above 40 Min, cooling the outside better will propably outperform internal Airflow with way less effort. Now Considering that the Outside Surface is doing a lot of the Cooling, blowing really cold air from an Air Conditioner Unit at it would not only increase temperature difference between outer Surface and Air, thus increasing Dissapation, but also would add considerable outside airflow. An AC Unit is Still Pretty Bulky tho, not the kind of thing you want to have to bring to any shooting location, except for Studio work, where the camera will be setup all the Time and doesnt need to move all that much.
 .
 Still kind of a difficult topic, because no matter the amount of Airflow you will be able to generate, as of now the Cooling solution still has the problem that the thermal resistance between the Sensor and the Case is still pretty high, meaning even if you could Force the outside Of the Case to 22C Room Temperature with massive Fans or something, Sensor would propably still sit at something like 30 to 35C (or even worse possibly). So sure, this will work for the Average user propably, but the thing is, that this sensor just has way more potential Image Quality available, which needs a better cooling solution somehow. Now if you can even get it to 35C on the Long runtimes, thats allready a huge win, but everything below that will almost sure need Internal Modification or use of an AC Unit or something like that.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2021, 03:10:06 AM »
so, this Cooling Project has been quite an Rollercoaster of Emotions so far. Two Weeks ago i finally finished The Cooler, prepared Brass tubes of Correct Lenght and soldered them All up. Put the Camera back together to test Waterflow, when i did that, the Water Hose popped right off (had put it on without hose-Clamp cause i didnt really expect any serious Pressure Buildup), and ended up completely Showering the Camera (with luckily no battery inside).
 That scared me good for a Moment.
 Ok, tried that later again with hose Clamp on, nothing happened, besides me Shorting out something inside because the Still rather Flexible Blank Brass tubes touching something on the RAM or whoever knowes where on the PCB. Camera survived fine however, just Instantly shut down when it was Shorted out, and turned on just normaly after that.
 .
 After Taking it apart to investigate what was going on, i realized, i must have pluged the Path for the Water When soldering one of the Two Connections of the Cooler-Block itself. All of the Connections where drilled to a very Tight fit, and would hold reasonable Water pressure even without even soldering them. The hole on the Block itself however ended up beeing slightly oversize, because of the Depth i had to drill there. So, because of this, and because of the time i needed to solder all that up (tried to solder it all up in one go, to avoid needing to heat all that mass up again, and instead do it all while still hot), some Solder propably was able to flow inside there and Plug it up completely. I had not tested with air bevore, so i only figured that out once i tried with water.
 .
 As i figured, there would be no clean Way to save this cooler after that, i had to start over completely once again.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2021, 03:40:09 AM »
Now, i also didnt want to risk drilling a even smaller hole that deep into the Cooler (drilling a 2mm Hole of that depth was allready more than Hard enough), but needed to predrill it, and then carefully drill it to size, to achive a tight fit on there to avoid risking the Same mistake again. I thought about that for quite a while and figured, it would be easiest to just modify the Cooler Shape, so i had way less material to drill through. As the Sides of that 4mm Thick Flat on the "Back" of the Cooler besides the Sensor Cooling pad dont really do anything (apart from adding Surface area and mass, which is well justified in normal use, but doesnt change anything for a test like this), i just removed them, and was now left with only 12,5mm to drill through instead of the 28mm on the Original version. This allowed me to predrill and then carefully Drill both ends to size, just like i did on the 90 Connectors. This worked out very well and i ended up with a nice tight fit on the Holes on the Cooler this time. The Additional Space from removing the material there also allowed me to do some rather Large Radius bends, to minimize the amount of connections and Amount of soldering i had to do on there, to further minimize the risk of any mistakes happening like bevore. just for good measure i also put some beefy Heat-Shrink on there to help overall rigidity and also prevent from bare metal touching anything on the PCBs, with the hope that it will also help a bit with avoiding condensation inside the Camera.
 .
 I noticed that the Thermal Pad on the Sensor itself also wasnt making all too great contact with the Cooler block. Dont know why that is, could be me having taking it apart way too often by now, didnt really pay all that much attention to it when i first opened it. However, the Thermal Pad on the Sensor is also a bit small for my taste, it doesnt really cover as much surface Area as it could, i will replace mine with new ones soon hopefully. However, because of that i raised the Height of the Contact surface on the Copper Block by 0,15mm to increase Contact pressure, and ensure it would at least have good contact on the Surface covered by the original pad. On the Other Cooler i used Some Layer of thermal Paste to ensure good contact, which isnt ideal, but still performed well enough.
 .
 If anyone is interrested, The Cooling pad on the Sensor and on the Other Chip behind it on the Same Cooler are 1mm Thick, as is the one on the Backside of the Display to cool an Chip there. The other Pad to cool the PCB behind the Sensor is 2mm Thick.
 .
 Put everything together, and this time it went Smoothly. Also tested it with Air first this time, airflow was there, and it seemed not to leak.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2021, 03:53:17 AM »
First Quick test is looking good, Water this time also does what it is supposed to do, go through the Camera, but not Spread inside it.
 .
 Lowered Room Temperature to 21C, and got down to a sustained Sensor Temperature of 24,5C (Left it running for about an Hour, went up to 26C sometimes, but remained fairly stable) with an Water-Temperature of 10,7C. At this Temperature, Condensation started on parts of the Water hose used, so to avoid it completely, room Temperature would need to be lowered even more.
 .
 So far havent Done any Image-Quality testing with it yet, just did 4 Black Calibrations along the Cooldown of the Camera, and it seems that Light Sensitivity increases when cooling down, and The Static Vertical Line Patterns get a lot less visible, and the Sensor has a way more orgainc (moving) "grain" like Noise, which i like a lot. This wasnt a real test however, but about the Result i assumed this whole experiment would lead to. But a lot more Testing has to be done here. Will also test very high temperatures to confirm this observation, but need to rig this up quite a bit better and set up some propper lights and stuff, so far i am very happy this finaly works as well as it does, and hasnt killed the cam with water.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #22 on: February 04, 2021, 04:58:55 AM »
I just made a new Thread for the Test Results, as i want to keep this Thread to the Hardware Aspects and Cooler-Designs itself, and the New one should be more about how it influences the Image Quality to keep them both on topic and a bit more organized:
 https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=635.0

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2021, 01:46:08 AM »
Now after the first tests, I really think its worth designing a more refined version of this cooler to make it possible to use in the Real world and not only in an experimental Setup.  .
 So lets have a few theoretical thoughts about the whole situation and define how an Ideal Cooler would look like, bevore trying to build one.
 .
 .
 From what we know so far, A stable Temperature is still by far more important than the absolute Temperatue on the Sensor for Image Quality, as even a few degree Drift up or down completely messes up the Image (see test Results in the Other Thread/ Second Test i did/ Shot without Black-Calibration after Temperature Change, If you havent allready noticed yourself while using it), so The Cooler needs to be able to maintain the Sensor Temperature at the Lowest Possible Temperature as Steadily as Possible.
 .
 Also, with the Stock Cooler-Block Design there is still way too high thermal Resistance beteween the Cooler itself (which i got close to 10C at some points while testing), and the Sensor Substrate. Right now Temperature Difference between the Cooler and Substrate is still way over 12C. This means, an Ideal Cooler would also reduce the Thermal Resistance from the Sensor Package Surface to the Cooler itself as far as somehow possible.
 .
 Furthermore there should be some consideration about Condensation and different Environments, the Cam maybe will end up in. Mainly Room /outside Temperature and Humidity of the Air which can Cause Condensation inside the Camera, given the Cooler is cold enough compared to the Air Temperature. So now an ideal Cooler would Keep the Sensor just as cold to avoid Condensation, but as close to room Temperature as possible, or even Below that. But as Environment Temperatures Can Change in a very wide range, Cooler Block temperature would also need to be adjustable in case of using a Powered Chiller or similar.
 .
 Next, it should be Independently Controlled. Air Temperature can have very rapid changes for different Reasons, or even Drift around because of Lights in a Small Room, or Air outside heating up during the Day and cooling in the Night. So ideally the Cooler would remain the Same Temperature all along, and would be decoupled from the Air Temperature around it.
 .
 Ideally it would also be Failsave/ Hybrid Cooling. Meaning, that even if whatever cooling solution Used, it will still work when it fails/ Wouldnt need to be Powered if not wanted for some Reason. Now, as the Stock ("passive") Cooling Solution works "Well enough" for general use, and still produces good Footage for the Most part, this would be good enough cooling as As kind of a Backup for a sub-Ambient Sensor Cooling solution.
 .
 It should also be small footprint and not add a ton of Size or weight to the Camera itself ("car Radiator" Ect.). Would also need no/ only very little Permanent Modification on the Stock Camera and Easily removeable if needed.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2021, 02:05:46 AM »
After some More Research on the Sensor itself and the Other Chip:
 .
 https://www.ti.com/lit/ug/sprugz8g/sprugz8g.pdf?ts=1612518695233&ref_url=https%253A%252F%252Fwww.ti.com%252Fproduct%252FTMS320DM8148
 https://www.luxima.com/product_briefs/LUX2100.html
 .
 It seems like the Sensor Itself has a TDP of 3,9W and the other Chip also Cooled by the same block is referenced with 2W if i Recall correctly ( this is a almost 4000 pages Long thing, and they dont even Bother giving any Thermal Specificaion in there, they only reference a example Power draw in a Footnote somewhere, but i cant be bothered right now to work myself through there again to find it. Mad Respect to anyone at Krontech Programing these and integrating them btw., I consider myself as someone who has quite a bit of a understanding of how Electronics and Computer work, but this datasheet looks extremely intimidating to me, never seen anything like this.).
 .
 Now this seems a lot more Manageable than the 40W Heat ouput i assumed bevore. Based on the Fact, that they dont even bother giving much information on the Thermals of the Other Chip, and the Observation, that they seem to work just fine no matter what, as long as they dont overheat, i wouldnt worry too much about cooling it better, and now only the Sensor with its 3,9W Needs To be cooled better.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 02:08:39 AM by Nikon1 »

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2021, 02:28:59 AM »
Peltier module coupled to the heat sink  8) ?
I had to think about this a lot recently.
 .
 When i actually looked into Peltier Modules, i found this thing here:
 .
 https://www.conrad.de/de/p/quickcool-qc-32-0-6-1-5as-peltier-element-3-6-v-1-8-a-3-91-w-lxbxh-10-x-8-x-2-5-2237012.html
 .
 Which happens to be a 3,91W Peltier Module which is 10x8mm In Size and 2.5mm Thick, meaning, it could realistically be made to fit inside the 12,5x9x3mm Space behind the Sensor, with a Modified Cooler Block. Should be able to handle the Heat Output from the Sensor very well, and the Additional Heat on the Block from the Peltier shouldnt be a huge problem Really, as the Other stuff doesnt care as much about Temps.
 .
 So far i assumed that Peltiers where way to big to realistically be an Option here, but this one Changed my mind, and i really am Considering using one right now.
 .
 But there is still like at least 4 Different Ways a Peltier Module Could be used to improove Cooling:
 .
 1. Like described above, Modify the Cooler to Make Space behind the Sensor and fit an extremely small Peltier Module In there, Cold Side Contacting the Sensor as directly as Possible, hot side with a Silicon Heat Pad between touching the Slightly Modified Cooler Block to achive Correct Mounting Pressure.
 .
 2. Somehow Cool the Entire Cooler Block With an Peltier, very similar to what i did with the Watercooling just now.
 .
 3. Another Attempt would be to Cool the Whole Camera Body itself from the Outside with Peltiers and Some Kind of Heatsinks on them, maybe something like CPU-Coolers on the Hot side, Cold Side Touching the Camera Body.
 .
 4. Would be somewhat more elaborate. Making an Intermediate Cooling block which is Very Closely Connected to the Sensor Package Surface; something like Thermal Paste, contacting it directly; which is cooled by a big Peltier Module somewhere, Hot side of the Peltier would interface with Heatpipes connected to some External Cooler, and the Small Intermediate (actively Cooled) Sensor Cooling block would then Be connected with thermal pads to a Cooler Block similar to the Original one, which would still cool the Other Chip on the Back, and would provide Backup cooling in case the Peltier isnt active for whatever Reason.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2021, 02:57:40 AM »
Those also come with a Lot of Problems to Solve.
 .
 .
 2. is Problematic, because it doesnt really improove the problem of the Still Rather High Thermal Resistance between the Cooler Block and Sensor Package, meaning this Peltier would need to cool the Block down to way below Ambient Temps to even get remotely close to ambient Temps on the Sensor Substrate. From the Earlier Tests with the Waterblock, this kind of attempt also means that the entire Camera body will have a very close Temperature Relation to the Cooler Block, meaning it will also be cooled down to the Cooler Block Temperature eventually, and at well below Ambient Temps, this means it acts Like a Reverse Heatsink, pulling heat from The Room, or the Room starting to heat up the Camera, however you want to put it. This Results in the Need of a Very beefy Peltier Module, which usually is really big and very hard to fit anywhere inside there, needs tons of Power, and also needs a Huge Heatsink to cool the Hot side.
 .
 3. Would be about the Same thing like 2., but resulting in slightly worse Sensor Temps with the Benefit of way easier Mounting and Cooling of the Module.
 .
 4. Is propably the Most propper Way to do this, but is quite elaborate. Because there are now two independent cooler Blocks, the Sensor can be cooled with an way smaller Thermal Resistance, and the Resulting Temperature of the Camera body is way more loosely Coupled to the "cold" Part of this Cooling System, meaning the Camera Body doesnt pull as Much heat from the Room, and the Peltier could be way smaller. More direct access to the Sensor like this also means that there no longer is a need to "overcool" the Block as much as bevore to achive reasonable low sensor Temps, meaning also less heat input from the Surroundings because lower Temperature difference to begin with. However, still pretty tricky to fit in there i assume, because it still would propably need a decently sized Peltier Module.
 .
 1. Is Great, because it is the only one of the bunch wich doesnt need any additional External Coolers of any kind (But is also the Only one that wont Work in case the Peltier isnt running), but has some of its own problems. First off, i assume it wouldnt do all that great when for some Reason the Peltier isnt working. Possible Reasons include a lack of Power, because whatever you used to run it is out of power; and the Controller / Peltier itself just simply dying. Also fitting a temperature Probe in there for some kind of Control-Circut could be challenging, because of the Very Limited Space. All the Other ones will still do fine without the Peltier, as they are simply a slightly Modified Stock Cooler with boosted performance by an Peltier Module. This one is different, it relies completely on The Peltier for the Cooling.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2021, 03:08:57 AM »
Right now, i like 4. best, because it should give the best Performance, is failsave and could still be made with very little modifications to the Original cam, while beeing easily and Quickly removable if needed (Fixed Peltier Inside, removable external Cooler, resulting in a camera with some kind of Thermal Interface Surface on the Bottom, which is just slightly bigger than Stock), but Fitting the Peltier of the Power needed for this design inside can Proove to be tricky. Big Advantage of this design is also, additional Heating of the Sensor could also be impemented rather easily if ever needed, if i somehow find a way to make that work.
 .
 I maybe actually end up using 1. at least for Testing, because its just so much easier to build. Maybe i like it when i use it, and keep it that way, we will see.
 .
 .
 However, i now actually think Peltier Modules are the way to go, because they allow for an Adjustabe Stable Temperature on the Sensor below any other Temperature possible with other Small and Portable Cooling solutions. I did actually also think about Connecting the Cold side of Peltiers with the Sensor via Heatpipes, but heard, Heatpipes perform pretty bad for really low Temperatures, so i dropped that Idea. Would open up quite a few additional Options, so if anyone knows more about Heatpipes at low Temperatures, let me Know. Any other Ideas or Information is also very Welcome, thanks.

mklinger

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2021, 04:29:00 AM »
Something that might be worth considering is to just use all the components of the camera and put them into a new, much larger, custom case.  If your use case is in-studio, perhaps having something large like the size of a cinema camera would be OK.  That might also open up the possibility of using high end air cooling with a second battery or power supply if needed.

You might want to make a custom case for your water cooling ideas as well just to give yourself more room to work.

Nikon1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 590
    • View Profile
Re: Improoving Cooling on the 2.1 Sensor /Experimental
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2021, 05:49:08 AM »
Something that might be worth considering is to just use all the components of the camera and put them into a new, much larger, custom case.  If your use case is in-studio, perhaps having something large like the size of a cinema camera would be OK.  That might also open up the possibility of using high end air cooling with a second battery or power supply if needed.

You might want to make a custom case for your water cooling ideas as well just to give yourself more room to work.
Thanks for the Idea, havent really thought about that yet.
 But not really the direction i want to go with this.
 Really like the Form Factor of the Chronos as is, and even the Current Size is allready somewhat on the Large side for what i am used to (when ready for use). While i sometimes have the Luxery of Studio-Type work, the majority of filmmaking i am involved in needs to move way Quicker, like on location shooting with very limited time available. So i want the Camera to be as Small and Modular as possible, and it does a well enough job at that as it is. So speaking about current overall Design of the Camera, it would work really well in my usecase.
 In my opinion, the Grip can use some Work, upgrade the internal Display to  a High-Resolution display that can be Flipped and maybe a Cage, and it would be close to Perfect.
 .
 While that Rehousing would indeed make things a lot simpler in terms of Cooling design, this would also mean starting another way bigger Project along with it, Basically designing (and Fabricating) an Entirely new Camerabody. And making that As Functional and Polished as the Current Chronos Package is, isnt really worth it for me.
 .  Also to clarify, main Problem isnt really the Lack of total Free Space inside the Camera itself, i was able to fit plenty of Brass Pipes and stuff in there Without too much Problems with still half the Insides Empty, Problem is that the Two PCBs are so close together (and there is also Chips to be cooled on two sides of the Space where the Sensor Cooler will have to be. Genius design if you want to save yourself the Work of cooling them Seperately somehow and Saving space, not so great if you Try to fit some wicked Custom Cooling solution in there and dont care too much about the other Stuff around it). So just designing a new Enclosure wouldnt quite be the end of the Story (even if it would still make things a bit easier), as that would remain unchanged. To make more space, where its actually needed for easy sensor cooling would mean to also Redesign and Rewire the Connections to the Sensor Board, to allow for different Spacing/ Alignment of the Boards. Now even i dont want to mess with that stuff. Way too much opportunities to Produce Way more Problems than there allready are. We are still talking about reasonable High Frequency Data Bus Stuff, pretty Delicate Tec, wont touch that. As they Say, never touch a running System. Did things like that and worse with some Older and Never Nikon Cameras i got for cheap allready partialy broken, but for sure wont do that with an fully functional Camera that is as Expensive unless i actually have to. (See https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=464.msg2499#msg2499 )
 .
 So in my opinion, if i where to do anything like this, go all the Way and also modify the Electronics (Prepare for a lot of Troubleshooting most likely), and make a completely custom Camera at that point, or just find a Way to make a Drop-In Replacement work, as i am Currently trying to do.
 .
 Thing is, i am sure i could if i tried hard enough, but i really dont want to. People, including myself Capture amazing Footage even with the Stock Cooling on theirs, and rather than spending Way too much time building an all Custom Camera, i still want to be left with some time actually using it and Having Fun with it. So i am trying to find a Cooling solution that is as Easy and Low-Effort as possible, with best results, so People could copy it; or If its practical enough and easy to implement, maybe even used by Krontech as a Reference Design for Future Versions / Revisions of current Cameras. At the Very least it should contribute to the further Developement in terms Of Image Quality of the Krontech Cameras, if nothing else.
 .
 .
 As Far as studio Use goes, i assume even the Watercooler i documented above would be a very solid Solution for Some Usecase like this. If you dont move your Camera a lot, this should work fine For you. Maybe put a bit more effort into The Tubing, use some Propper Fittings and Replace coolant with Alcohol, run it outside and Cool it with an Peltier there in some kind of external Box (as Some People do with their PC Cooling, can provide examples if needed), make everything look Neat and build it into a Closed Loop, and you are good to go. I however dont really like the idea of Fluids inside there, and am actually too lazy to Build this into a finished System, as it still will end up taking up a lot of External Space and will be pretty much a permanent Fixture on the Camera (Which will also need power, so add some huge Battery also). If i only did studio Work, i would maybe just use the Cooler i last build and be happy with it, but this is sadly not the case, quite the Opposite actually.
 .
 Thanks for your Input Anyways!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 06:03:36 AM by Nikon1 »