Author Topic: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?  (Read 3641 times)

Buddlich

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Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« on: June 02, 2021, 11:39:08 PM »
I am just curious if there are any plans to integrate the 100k FPS option back into the 1.4. I know it wasn't that pretty but it was still quite cool to have this option.

I got so many people asking for that. Meanwhile I can't even find the old build with that option in it. That's really sad. :(

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2021, 02:29:15 AM »
as the 2.1 sensor seemingly also can handle way more than the current maximum Framerate, i also wonder, if there will ever be any way to make use of that, at least partially. from what i understand, the problem is mainly h.264 Codec having problem with extremely small resolutions and needing to add Black "background" / Bars to top and bottom of the Frames. At least for the 2.1, dont know why it was removed for the 1.4.
 .
 If you happen to know the exact version of Firmware, you could post it here, maybe someone still happens to have it somewhere and can share it. I usually keep a bit of an archive of all the versions i use, just in case. But since i only got mine like a Year ago or something, i dont think i have versions that go all that far back to where you need it, but i think i might not be the only one who does that.
 .
 https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=463.0
 https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=480.0
 https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=94.0
 .
 .
 #EDIT#: Forgot to put the Links...
« Last Edit: June 04, 2021, 02:31:23 AM by Nikon1 »

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2021, 02:49:43 AM »
Found one Reference to that version here, seems like you are looking for this version here:
 
"The shutter speed can be set regardless but the issue is the amount of light required. David said figure 7 Lux per FPS. I presume thatís at 360 deg shutter so even way more light at higher shutter speeds. As long as the file remains on github, you can use it. Download it now and save it in anticipation of getting a camera. Iíll check and confirm tomorrow."

Thanks.  I reread this thread and it looks like the Voyager release on 3/31/2020 supports a minimum vertical height of 32.  I'm not sure, but I think that corresponds to a 109,000 fps when the horizontal is 320 or maybe it is 336.

 . https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=531.msg3236#msg3236
 https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=531.msg3250#msg3250

Buddlich

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2021, 10:19:43 AM »
Exactly! Thank you :)
Unfortunately the version isn't available anymore.
http://debian.krontech.ca/builds/

mostafa

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2021, 03:37:22 PM »
I am just curious if there are any plans to integrate the 100k FPS option back into the 1.4. I know it wasn't that pretty but it was still quite cool to have this option.

I got so many people asking for that. Meanwhile I can't even find the old build with that option in it. That's really sad. :(

Thank you for sharing your concerns about the 100K FPS. Unfortunately, we have decided to take that software build away, since the footage recorded at such resolution was not displaying useful image data. We will not be bringing this feature back to Chronos 1.4/2.1 cameras but will keep this frame rate in mind for future designs.

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2021, 04:24:13 PM »
Decisions are Decisions i guess, but is there still any way for me as an user to get around that minimum Resolution limit (which, from what i understand is the only thing, apart from internal Timing at some point ofc, keeping it from beeing able to record way higher Framerates)?
 .
 Like modifying the firmware on my own or something? And i mean me as someone who cant really do programming or stuff.
 To at least run it on an experimental Level. I assume nobody actually using the top end Frame-Rate Options or even those "extended" Framerate-Options like the 100k one would expect Cinema-Level Quality from that kind of footage, but sometimes you are just at a point, where every bit of fps are helpfull to see whats happening at all, even if it looks ever so bad...
 I also got asked very recently to shoot some stuff, at which, when you do the Math, even the 24k max FPS on the 2.1 will give you like 1 Frame of actual action if you get lucky or you even miss it completely. Image Quality doesnt matter at all for this, just trying to figure out whats going on.
 So for things like that, even a bit more Framerate would help a lot, even if i had to actually go and modify the Firmware myself, as long as its somewhat reasonable and doable for an average dude who isnt a Programmer.
 So is there ANY way to do that?

lwaters

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2021, 06:50:42 AM »
I completely agree, while it may not have been pretty- there was still information we were using. How absolutely frustrating.

sanjay

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2021, 07:12:18 PM »
Hey Everyone,

I'd like to provide some steps on how to modify the sensor driver code in a Chronos 1.4 to get to ~100k FPS. While there is no intention to support such a capability in an official release of software, the functionality in question here resides in an open-source codebase, so I'm suggesting modifications that you already have the right to do since you own the camera outright. You don't need to be a programmer so long as you follow the steps l have added below, but you will need a terminal program such as PuTTY or TeraTerm, a micro or mini usb cable to connect from the Chronos to your PC, and an ethernet connection that allows for the camera to reach the internet.

Please note that we will not provide technical support related to the noise and general glitches that result in using your Chronos 1.4 at this resolution and any other configuration that wasn't released via an official software update.


Alright, let's get to it (commands to enter in your terminal are in blue:

1. SSH into the camera by connecting the USB Micro cable to your computer, opening a terminal program such as PuTTy.
   192.168.12.1 Port 22
   user: root
   password: chronos

2. Connect the camera to the internet via the ethernet cable so it can get some extra packages.

3. Stop the control software.
   service chronos-control stop

4. Run the following command to get some required software on the camera:
   apt-get update
    apt-get install git ca-certificates python3-setuptools


5. Clone the Pychronos repository into the home directory of the camera
   cd ~/
    git clone https://github.com/krontech/pychronos.git


6. Edit the sensor driver to extend the minimum frame size
(github link to the commit where I reverted this feature: https://github.com/krontech/pychronos/commit/223859426da71c23b90f0b09e766002c7b47e468#diff-ce76eae0bee25361c5353bd1ac92ff77907ec6e42adff4ee0605b87fb7e5704e)
   nano pychronos/pychronos/sensors/lux1310.py
      change MIN_VRES = 96 to MIN_VRES = 32 on line 32
      change numRows = 64 to numRows = min(64, fSize.vRes) on line 652
      save and exit the file with Ctrl + O then Ctrl + X

6. Navigate into the pychronos directory
   cd ~/pychronos

7. Build the package with your modifications by running
    python3 setup.py build

8. Install the package with your modifications by running
    python3 setup.py install

9. Power off the camera using the power button

10. Start the camera, navigate to Record Settings, enter a resolution of 320 x 32 and press Max next to FPS. The camera should show 109,890 FPS. You'll want to black cal before shooting as usual.

If the above steps leave the pychronos install in a broken state, you can delete contents in /usr/local/lib/python3.4/dist-packages/ and then reboot to load the pychronos build that originally shipped with the software image.




Here's a quick example of how a Chronos 1.4 will behave when aimed at a glass of water at 109,890 FPS: https://youtu.be/yXWM5_OZ84w

As can be seen in my video, the output suffers from occasional noise spikes and the bottom most rows are not being read out properly. As you can imagine, we'd likely receive many support emails/calls from folks who would wonder what was going on if we were to leave it implemented as-is for an official release. However, for those who really need the throughput, I hope this helps.

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2021, 07:23:11 PM »
Wow, huge thanks for providing that info!
 Will this work on an 2.1 also?
 I am aware, that the 2.1 will be nowhere near able to match the 100kfps of the 1.4 just from Sensor Hardware Limitations, as far as i remember that correctly, but i mean is there Any more Framerate to be gained on the 2.1 or is this Mod working on the 1.4 only?
 Thanks anyways however, i am sure this will help a bunch of 1.4 owners out a lot, that just want to go as fast as the hardware possibly can.

mklinger

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2021, 04:58:02 AM »
Wow, huge thanks for providing that info!
 Will this work on an 2.1 also?
 I am aware, that the 2.1 will be nowhere near able to match the 100kfps of the 1.4 just from Sensor Hardware Limitations, as far as i remember that correctly, but i mean is there Any more Framerate to be gained on the 2.1 or is this Mod working on the 1.4 only?
 Thanks anyways however, i am sure this will help a bunch of 1.4 owners out a lot, that just want to go as fast as the hardware possibly can.

Actually, from the Luxima datasheet from the LUX2100 sensor, used in the Chronos 2.1, it can achieve 125,000 fps at 1920x8 and they mention it can achieve 300,000+ fps windowed down, which I presume would be 832x8 (but that's not specified directly in this simple datasheet):

https://www.luxima.com/product_briefs/LUX2100.html

I believe I have read that aside from the potential quality issues, the reason they're not supporting these smaller/faster vertical resolutions are due to limitations in the H.264 encoding algorithms that can't handle it.

What would be fun to add as a wish-list feature would be to open up these faster resolutions in the raw modes only, like DNG. 

Like Sanjay mentions, all this code is open-source, so anyone can mess around with it, but without access to the full sensor datasheets and the Chronos camera hardware details, it might be a lot of trial and error.

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2021, 06:58:26 AM »
I mean somewhere higher up on that same page they even say:
Quote
It can be windowed down to achieve frame rates of 700,000+ FPS.
So not quite sure about what is correct here. Also i dont know how all the other Hardware inside the Camera will handle such framerates, if it even can. Even the 300+fps are in my opinion somewhat extreme to actually expect working well, as they not even bother to give an exact resolution for that. The Sensor probably CAN somehow push those kinds of Framerates in very ideal conditions and with a lot of finetuning on Hardware and software, and perfect timings and such. But to be a bit more realistic here, even getting 125kfps working somewhat reasonably well on the 2.1 would be huge.
 .
 The "up to 125kfps" claim i find a lot more realistic, as they give a resolution for that, and the 1.4 has prooven that it can handle framerates like that, even if not without bugs.
 For me personally i would allready be quite happy with something like 40-50kfps on the 2.1 working at least half useable.
 I would still take the 125kfps without any question, if it works however.
 .  .
 as for Saving and the H.264 Problems, i dont know if that is really an issue here. I think if the Camera will record to RAM, it should also (at least try to) save the Footage. Of course the H.264 Option for File Format shouldnt be touched when operating at such resolutions, because it probably will freeze, crash or do something else bad, but i dont see why the camera should have any problems when trying to save small resolution files to DNG format Footage, or in the Worst case just plain RAW Format and Convert on the PC later.
 Main reason why i was asking about the 2.1 however, was to see if the Hardware overall was even capable of handling ANY more than the Current Max. Framerate, no matter how badly it does. If i remember correctly, I think i read somewhere that they had to change somethings about timings somewhere in the Camera to get the 100kfps working, when they first released that in that one Firmware version that had it. So, just because the Sensor can handle it, even if all the Other Hardware can keep up with it in theory, still doesnt mean, it will just work.
 To be fair, i now also remember that main reason for the Framerate Limit was about the H.264 after you said that. So that would somewhat imply that the 2.1 will indeed run higher framerates.
 This, and the fact that sanjay specifically said that those instructions are for the 1.4 and left the 2.1 untouched in his post.
 .
 If i set my mind to it, and put enough time and effort into it, i will eventually figure out how to do this Mod on the 2.1 (i assume only thing to change on the Instructions above would be the Sensor Name? from what i understand, it basically just changes the Minimum allowed resolution to be smaller, and the camera then on its own figures out that it can run a lot faster, so that should be the only thing keeping it from doing that in the First place. Once that Min. Resolution Limit is gone, it should in theory just start recording when i tell it to. Getting the Footage off the Camera is an whole other beast to tame with the H.264 Limits and such, but even if i can just watch the Playback on the Internal Screen, i will still be able to figure out a lot more temporal Detail of what is going on, from the Footage. If it plain out wont save at all for some Reason, i can still just Hook up some Kind of HDMI Recorder and let the Camera Play back the Footage. So how to save the Footage is for now not really that much of a concern for me). But as i also allready mentioned above, i am not all that good with code and stuff and avoid command-Line stuff like this wherever i can. So, it would be nice to know if someone, who is more capable than me around code stuff, actually tries this on an 2.1; if it does work or not. Would potentially save me like a day or  two at worst (This doesnt seem all that bad from Reading over it briefly, so might just be an Afternoon, but can end up taking me like forever if i get stuck somewhere).
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 07:00:48 AM by Nikon1 »

mklinger

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2021, 07:48:05 AM »
I have requested a full datasheet from Luxima.  I'll be curious to read some of the actual details and limitation of the sensor.   I would bet the 700k FPS figure is something crazy like 32x8 pixels and the rest of the hardware would need to be specially configured, but the datasheet should spell that out.  Because the Chronos 1.4 can actually do ~110k FPS, my guess is that the image overhead for those kinds of speeds would also be possible on the 2.1 as the rest of the hardware is essentially (maybe exactly) identical.

A quick check of the H.264 codec wiki makes it seem that very small vertical resolutions should be possible, but it's extremely likely that the library they are using on the Chronos has a limit.  H.264 is a very complex codec and is really optimized for large resolutions and block sizes.  Just having raw image support at these experimental resolutions would be totally acceptable to me, but they might not want to do that.  Personally, I never use the H.264 output and always using DNG for maximum quality.

I have quite a bit of software development background and am very comfortable reading their code, but it's complex not because the code is complex, it's complex because the algorithms implemented to handle the hardware are complex.

Once I see the datasheet, I may make a copy of the firmware and start playing around with it for fun.



Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2021, 07:59:13 AM »
While i am not all that good with code itself, i am also very aware of how most of the Compression Codecs work, at least on an "surface" level, not down to the Last details.  Read up a bunch of stuff about it over time. It really isnt optimized for Tiny resolutions, so support for such can be pretty bad. Never wrote any code for a camera or something like this, but had to export /import a bunch of very weird resolution Files to various Editing Software at some point, and that was quite a problem allready. From What i have seen, H.264 also doesnt seem to like absurdly extreme Aspect ratios all that much, which may also be a Problem here.
 .
 And yes, If you can have a play with it and give some info about if that even works on the 2.1, that would be great, so i know if its worth putting my time into even trying to getting it to run on mine. Thanks!

mklinger

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2021, 05:31:40 PM »
And yes, If you can have a play with it and give some info about if that even works on the 2.1, that would be great, so i know if its worth putting my time into even trying to getting it to run on mine. Thanks!

I can confirm that those changes alone aren't enough to get faster speeds on the 2.1.  I have a feeling there are potentially changes in the sensor files that might do it, but I haven't played around more than to confirm that these changes aren't enough.  Maybe Sanjay can help point us in the right direction to play around with???  :)  I think there may be gain settings that help the issue with lower resolutions as well, but that will also take more exploring and it'd really be nice to have the full data sheet before messing around with that.

One thing I did find, which is pretty awesome, is the location to change the default resolution settings that show up in the drop down menu.

If you follow all of the steps Sanjay outlined above, you can just:

cd /var/camera

and edit the plain text file called "resolutions"

You don't even need to rebuild or re-install as that file is dynamically read when you go to the Record Settings page.  Nice!!

mklinger

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2021, 05:41:46 PM »
ill also take more exploring and it'd really be nice to have the full data sheet before messing around with that.

One thing I did find, which is pretty awesome, is the location to change the default resolution settings that show up in the drop down menu.

If you follow all of the steps Sanjay outlined above, you can just:

cd /var/camera

and edit the plain text file called "resolutions"

You don't even need to rebuild or re-install as that file is dynamically read when you go to the Record Settings page.  Nice!!


Actually, I spoke a little too soon... while that does change the resolutions setting in the drop-down, it's not that simple unfortunately and it looks like it breaks the black calibration process.  I'll poke around a bit with this to see if I can find something that works reliably as it would be really nice to be able to change those default settings.