Author Topic: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?  (Read 5238 times)

mklinger

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2021, 06:38:51 PM »
Actually, I spoke a little too soon... while that does change the resolutions setting in the drop-down, it's not that simple unfortunately and it looks like it breaks the black calibration process.  I'll poke around a bit with this to see if I can find something that works reliably as it would be really nice to be able to change those default settings.

OK... one more update... good news this time.  It's actually the changes that I made to the lux2100.py file to attempt the 1.4 changes on the 2.1 that broke the black calibration.  So, yeah, don't do that :)

BUT, it looks like changing the "resolutions" file in /var/camera works great.

I now have all my favorite custom resolutions (using 1920, 1472, 1152, and 832 horizontal resolutions) programmed into the drop down menu and they all auto-calibrated properly using the "Util->Factory->Black Calibrate All Resolutions" button.   This is a VERY nice feature and worth the effort of going through Sanjay's steps IMHO.

I would recommend using a backup microSD card though in case something gets messed up.

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2021, 01:13:22 PM »
I can confirm that those changes alone aren't enough to get faster speeds on the 2.1.  I have a feeling there are potentially changes in the sensor files that might do it, but I haven't played around more than to confirm that these changes aren't enough.  Maybe Sanjay can help point us in the right direction to play around with???  :)  I think there may be gain settings that help the issue with lower resolutions as well, but that will also take more exploring and it'd really be nice to have the full data sheet before messing around with that.

One thing I did find, which is pretty awesome, is the location to change the default resolution settings that show up in the drop down menu.

If you follow all of the steps Sanjay outlined above, you can just:

cd /var/camera

and edit the plain text file called "resolutions"

You don't even need to rebuild or re-install as that file is dynamically read when you go to the Record Settings page.  Nice!!
Sorry for the late Reply, but as far as i understand what you are saying in those last three posts, is that at least setting/changing those Preset Resolutions in the Drop-Down list are easy to do with this method, which is great.
 Wanted to have a way to change them in the Firmware since a while, and also think i wrote that on the Forum before somewhere (not sure tho) already. While this is a little more work for the user than if you could just do that via the UI itself, its nice, to know, that there is now a way to do that at least for those that want to.
 For me it will probably be a bunch of Framerate-Options at 1080p/720p HD Resoutions, which i often find myself using, and while i am at it, maybe also add at least some of your custom Resolutions for maximizing Gigapixel Throughput, in case i need them at some point.
 .
 Regards the described Mod not working for the 2.1, i kind of expected that, as i wrote in my reply, because these Changes that are made here, seem Sensor-Specific, so, even if everything else would be the Same, i would assume that i would at least have to change the Sensor Name to (would have to look the 2.1 Sensor Name/ model number up...) for the 2.1 for this to work.
 However, did you already get the Full Datasheet/ any Updates on that yet?
 .
 And Yes, i fully agree on that, anyone using that Mod should do that on a Spare/ Backup OS microSD card, so in case you mess up somehow, you can still use your Camera.
 Will do the Same thing, but i am currently out of empty/ Spare Cards, and ordered a bunch more for stuff like that (i like to keep a bunch of old versions and the Current one around installed on its own card each, so all of them are full right now).
 .
 Thanks for testing and Posting that anyways!
« Last Edit: August 20, 2021, 01:15:25 PM by Nikon1 »

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #17 on: October 23, 2021, 02:50:34 AM »
I have requested a full datasheet from Luxima.  I'll be curious to read some of the actual details and limitation of the sensor.   I would bet the 700k FPS figure is something crazy like 32x8 pixels and the rest of the hardware would need to be specially configured, but the datasheet should spell that out.  Because the Chronos 1.4 can actually do ~110k FPS, my guess is that the image overhead for those kinds of speeds would also be possible on the 2.1 as the rest of the hardware is essentially (maybe exactly) identical.

A quick check of the H.264 codec wiki makes it seem that very small vertical resolutions should be possible, but it's extremely likely that the library they are using on the Chronos has a limit.  H.264 is a very complex codec and is really optimized for large resolutions and block sizes.  Just having raw image support at these experimental resolutions would be totally acceptable to me, but they might not want to do that.  Personally, I never use the H.264 output and always using DNG for maximum quality.

I have quite a bit of software development background and am very comfortable reading their code, but it's complex not because the code is complex, it's complex because the algorithms implemented to handle the hardware are complex.

Once I see the datasheet, I may make a copy of the firmware and start playing around with it for fun.
Any Progress / Updates on the 2.1 Datasheet /-mod?

mklinger

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #18 on: October 23, 2021, 05:39:13 AM »
I have requested a full datasheet from Luxima.  I'll be curious to read some of the actual details and limitation of the sensor.   I would bet the 700k FPS figure is something crazy like 32x8 pixels and the rest of the hardware would need to be specially configured, but the datasheet should spell that out.  Because the Chronos 1.4 can actually do ~110k FPS, my guess is that the image overhead for those kinds of speeds would also be possible on the 2.1 as the rest of the hardware is essentially (maybe exactly) identical.

A quick check of the H.264 codec wiki makes it seem that very small vertical resolutions should be possible, but it's extremely likely that the library they are using on the Chronos has a limit.  H.264 is a very complex codec and is really optimized for large resolutions and block sizes.  Just having raw image support at these experimental resolutions would be totally acceptable to me, but they might not want to do that.  Personally, I never use the H.264 output and always using DNG for maximum quality.

I have quite a bit of software development background and am very comfortable reading their code, but it's complex not because the code is complex, it's complex because the algorithms implemented to handle the hardware are complex.

Once I see the datasheet, I may make a copy of the firmware and start playing around with it for fun.
Any Progress / Updates on the 2.1 Datasheet /-mod?

Luxima did send me the full data sheet on the sensor.  There were some really interesting things in there that I learned, but nothing jumped out that would allow for < 96 pixel height and faster speeds.  I think the sensor can do it, but it's probably not practical.  Really, with a base ISO of around 500, it would be extremely challenging to get enough light for anything more than it currently does.  Even with direct sunlight, that is only enough for about 10000-20000 fps.  Anything faster than that, you are pushing the noise levels pretty high and using artificial lights to get brighter need to be so close, you run into heat issues.  I contend that this camera is really the best option for 1000-5000 fps, and pretty good from 5000-10000 fps.  If you really need to go faster with high quality, you'll have to step up to a Phantom. 

A couple interesting things I did learn from the datasheet.  The sensor supports up to 8 regions of interest, meaning separate windows that can capture at the same time and they can all be different sizes.  This shows its roots in assembly line machine vision tasks and that would be something that could be useful in those applications.

The biggest news for me was that I saw that the LUX2100 supports pixel binning up to 2x2.  That is a way to combine the light gathering of multiple pixels to gain sensitivity with the tradeoff being a loss of native resolution.  I was really interested in this as it could potentially be a way to get a much more sensitive sensor.  Various cameras like some Phantoms can do that quite effectively.

When I reached out to the Krontech folks asking about it, they confirmed that the LUX2100 is ALREADY using 2x2 pixel binning and that is in fact, just a LUX8M (4K 250 fps) sensor with pixel binning turned on and a different Bayer filter attached to the front.  I speculated that the monochrome version of the Chronos 2.1 could potentially shoot 4K at 250 (as there is no Bayer filter at all installed), and they agreed, but they aren't currently working on that as the market for that would be small.  I thought it was very interesting though.  This makes a lot of sense if you read Luxima's product page carefully:

https://www.luxima.com/imageSensorProducts.html

The LUX8M and LUX2100 look identical and really are for the most part.  Very clever of them!


I am extremely happy with the performance I'm getting in the ~3000-3500 fps range where my primary use case lives and with the new firmware, things are looking good across pretty much the entire range of camera.

Nikon1

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #19 on: October 23, 2021, 06:42:06 AM »
Interresting indeed.
 Kind of sad, that there isnt an easy way to push more FPS, as that would actually be handy to have in some Rare situations for me, but obviously there has to be some kind of technical Limit somewhere i guess.
 Lighting is not that much of an issue, if you shoot Macro, and just Use one of those 300W or 500W LED Monolights as Direct Backlight, filling the Frame, very close to your subject. You can get pretty close with them, and i did use them in this Way already for some things, to get VERY short shutter Speeds. If you work with temperature Sensitive stuff, or you run the Risk of Melting your lens or something, you can still just set up your shot, turn the Lights on for a Second or so, and turn it back off.
 More Sensitivity (or better said More sensitivity at still very high image Quality) is of course always welcome, but having a much higher Framerate available at all on this camera in the First place would have been a huge thing, even if at 0dB gain only or something like that.
 Lighting is generally problematic with the 2.1 as with almost any other "normal" Highspeed-Camera, but i would have found a way to use it if i had to, even if insane amounts of Light would have been needed.
 Anyways, i agree, that the camera as is, is already pretty amazing.
 .
 Also thanks for the Update on this!

etbandung

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2021, 09:40:16 AM »
Found one Reference to that version here, seems like you are looking for this version here:
 
"The shutter speed can be set regardless but the issue is the amount of light required. David said figure 7 Lux per FPS. I presume thatís at 360 deg shutter so even way more light at higher shutter speeds. As long as the file remains on github, you can use it. Download it now and save it in anticipation of getting a camera. Iíll check and confirm tomorrow."

Thanks.  I reread this thread and it looks like the Voyager release on 3/31/2020 supports a minimum vertical height of 32.  I'm not sure, but I think that corresponds to a 109,000 fps when the horizontal is 320 or maybe it is 336.

 . https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=531.msg3236#msg3236
 https://forum.krontech.ca/index.php?topic=531.msg3250#msg3250

amazing it is

miked

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Re: Will there ever be a 100,000 FPS version again?
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2022, 08:33:40 AM »
I'd like to provide some steps on how to modify the sensor driver code in a Chronos 1.4 to get to ~100k FPS.

Is there a specific build I need to try this modification on?  I have tried 7.0 and 6.0, and both attempts resulted in a bootloop.