Author Topic: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release  (Read 925 times)

Tiny

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2021, 07:44:07 PM »
Thanks! 0.7.0 is very nice!
My camera is 2.1, and I always use 0.5.1.

In 0.7.0, especially when saving as H.264, the color is very beautiful.
On the other hand, I feel that it has become very difficult to handle the colors of CinemaDNG.
I'm thinking about shifting to 0.7.0 and shooting H.264 to the main.

Thank you.

Hello Takashima! I saw a clip from Youtube Channel, 【Slow Motion】キアゲハの求愛【Chronos 2.1 Highspeed】, may I ask, is the color shift from Cinema DNG only? Because I have this problem after upgrading to V0.7.0. Thank you very much for your time.

takashima

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2021, 11:19:22 PM »
Hello Takashima! I saw a clip from Youtube Channel, 【Slow Motion】キアゲハの求愛【Chronos 2.1 Highspeed】, may I ask, is the color shift from Cinema DNG only? Because I have this problem after upgrading to V0.7.0. Thank you very much for your time.

Hello Tiny san. Thank you for watching my YouTube video!
I also have trouble with Cinema DNG, after upgrading to V0.7.0. As Tiny-san said, DNG color is very very shallow. I tried various things in Lightroom, such as increasing the saturation, adjusting the color temperature and Tint, but I could not get the color as I wanted.
------ I can do well with 0.5.1.

But when I recorded it in H.264, I got a very natural and beautiful color video. I've been recording with CinemaDNG for a long time, but with 0.7.0, I feel that switching to H.264 seems to make me happier.

The following two movies both have some color adjustments in Finalcut Pro.

↓Cinema DNG, Ver.0.7.0   Color is strange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ5VMazF788

↓H.264, Ver.0.7.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94gvbVhOIg


Tiny

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2021, 04:33:02 AM »
Hello Takashima! I saw a clip from Youtube Channel, 【Slow Motion】キアゲハの求愛【Chronos 2.1 Highspeed】, may I ask, is the color shift from Cinema DNG only? Because I have this problem after upgrading to V0.7.0. Thank you very much for your time.

Hello Tiny san. Thank you for watching my YouTube video!
I also have trouble with Cinema DNG, after upgrading to V0.7.0. As Tiny-san said, DNG color is very very shallow. I tried various things in Lightroom, such as increasing the saturation, adjusting the color temperature and Tint, but I could not get the color as I wanted.
------ I can do well with 0.5.1.


But when I recorded it in H.264, I got a very natural and beautiful color video. I've been recording with CinemaDNG for a long time, but with 0.7.0, I feel that switching to H.264 seems to make me happier.

The following two movies both have some color adjustments in Finalcut Pro.

↓Cinema DNG, Ver.0.7.0   Color is strange.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZ5VMazF788

↓H.264, Ver.0.7.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G94gvbVhOIg



Hello Takashima san. Thank you very much for your time! I'm having the exact same problem like both your clips. I've also tried tweaking the color temperature and tint, no luck to getting the color of cinema DNG files close to the H.264 ones. I'm switching back to V0.6.0 for the time being. Thanks again Takashima san for your time.

muringuets

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2021, 06:01:54 AM »
I also have problems with tint on DNG files using 0.7.0, it's really hard to do white balance, something is off... (uploaded a sample)

not sure what to do now. the saving speeds on 0.7.0 are way better, but I don't like H.264...

You just can't have it all, right? lol

« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 07:06:23 AM by muringuets »

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2021, 08:44:58 AM »
Hi guys,

I wasn't allowed to share my experience with the 0.7 version of the software before it was released, but now that it's out, I'm sure they won't mind me sharing my initial findings.

I haven't had the time yet to properly evaluate the release version of 0.7, but I did do some work helping the Kron folks evaluate an alpha version of the software and the color change with Cinema DNG was present there too.

Here is a link to a video showing my findings:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k

The short answer is that Cinema DNG can be color corrected properly with 0.7, but it's harder and you really need to use a color chart and know how to manipulate the hue/hue and hue/sat histograms using a VectorScope.

I would really recommend watching Gerald Undone's video on color correction, as this type of manipulation is required to get the best out of Cinema DNG (and H.264 for that matter):

https://youtu.be/71ebKrT2XlY


IMHO, the 0.7 release is a massive improvement over 0.6.  Solving the pink cast problem and at least most of the gain problems at lower resolutions is a HUGE deal.

One of my recommendations to them was to publish a LUT for both H.264 and Cinema DNG footage to give folks a good starting point.  They said they are working to find a color scientist that can help them out with this.   I expect they'll come up with something soon.

Once I have time to spend with the release 0.7 version, I will create a custom LUT with DaVinci Resolve using my 5600K lights that I can share if people are interested which might be a decent starting point.

muringuets

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2021, 11:47:56 AM »
mklinger thanks for the input

It took me a while to fully understand the color correction, but after a lot of tweaking on Davinci Resolve, I got a usable sequence, but it is really really weird, counter intuitive and well it's hard to get it right. I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

Anyway, I'm impressed with the speed improvement, but still need time to get the best out of this new DNG files, not happy with that for now...

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2021, 01:40:14 PM »
mklinger thanks for the input

It took me a while to fully understand the color correction, but after a lot of tweaking on Davinci Resolve, I got a usable sequence, but it is really really weird, counter intuitive and well it's hard to get it right. I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

Anyway, I'm impressed with the speed improvement, but still need time to get the best out of this new DNG files, not happy with that for now...

Hi muringuets, once you have the color correction figured out for a given light source, you should be able to create your own LUT (look-up-table), and then just apply that to any new footage shot in the same conditions.  That is how the process is designed to work with a color chart, shoot once with it, in sunlight, or your artificial lights, etc., use a VectorScope (in software) to dial in objectively perfect colors, or as close as possible, save the LUT, and then you can apply that to future footage with no extra effort or ever having to shoot the color chart again in the same lighting conditions.

Sorry for the long-winded response if you already understand this process.

Basically, shooting in Cinema DNG on the Chronos is now even more like shooting in Log or other various Raw formats on conventional video cameras.  Usually, the camera supplier will provide a basic LUT to start with, which is what is missing for us (for now).  For example, Canon provides a Log2->Rec709 LUT, Log3->Rec709, etc.  It is very challenging to start from scratch if you don't really know what you're doing.  For example, adjusting just white balance, tint, color temp, and global saturation is not going to work.  Those adjustments are meant to tweak the final color look, but wont get you from Log (or Cinema DNG in our case), to Rec709.

I would say it would be almost impossible to get objectively correct colors from Cinema DNG without a color chart. 

I like using the X-Rite ColorChecker Video.  It looks like it's been discontinued, but there is a newly name-branded version coming soon:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/replacement_for/1191325-REG/x_rite_msccvpr_colorchecker_video.html


You mentioned that you use DaVinci Resolve.  The process of creating custom LUTs is super easy in that environment.  You can right-click on a clip in the color correction tab and there is a "Generate LUT" option right there where you can create a custom LUT from your existing correction.  The Gerald Undone video I linked in an earlier post shows this in more detail.

FWIW, I do a lot of video work with not just the Chronos, but things like a Canon XF-705, and various DSLRs.  I waited WAY too long before I got a proper color calibration chart and learned how to use it.  It makes all the difference in the world!


 
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 01:44:37 PM by mklinger »

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2021, 01:53:54 PM »
I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

One quick thing, double check that you updated all the way to version 0.7.  The pink/magenta cast was a big problem with 0.6 but I found it was pretty much completely fixed in 0.7 except for very high gain situations at low resolutions. 

If you were at version 0.5, I'm not sure if the camera would auto-update all the way to 0.7, or if you need to update to 0.6 first.  Anyway, before you pull your hair out too much, re-check the software version on the camera to make sure it is indeed 0.7 especially if you came from 0.5.

I need to check the release 0.7 in case they changed something drastic from the alpha 0.7 I was testing, but as you can see from this video, the pink cast was a major problem with v6 and almost completely fixed with v7 in my experience:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k


Nikon1

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #23 on: September 06, 2021, 02:00:16 PM »
if anyone has a bunch of spare time, there is also a bunch of unstable 0.7.x Releases from before the Official 0.7.0 Stable Release:
 http://debian.krontech.ca/builds/
 Maybe one of them is different in terms of color. Whoever feels the need to or has the Time To do so, can also test them/ play around with them.
 Still havent looked at them, as i so far didnt even have time to propperly test the Stable Release, but downloaded and Archived them, as they probably will be gone sooner or later (as the 5.1 Unstable is long gone now), just in case they are usefull/ better for some resolution/ Setting i might need/ want at some point in the Future.
 So might be a good idea to download for anyone who wants to do some testing at some point, as long as they are still there.

takashima

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #24 on: September 06, 2021, 03:07:39 PM »

...but as you can see from this video, the pink cast was a major problem with v6 and almost completely fixed with v7 in my experience:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k

Hello, mklinger san.
Wonderful! Now I know the power of version 0.7, I would definitely like to use it positively. Of course, with Cinema DNG.
And I'm looking forward to the development of LUT.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 03:58:17 PM by takashima »

Tiny

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #25 on: September 06, 2021, 06:43:35 PM »
I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

One quick thing, double check that you updated all the way to version 0.7.  The pink/magenta cast was a big problem with 0.6 but I found it was pretty much completely fixed in 0.7 except for very high gain situations at low resolutions. 

If you were at version 0.5, I'm not sure if the camera would auto-update all the way to 0.7, or if you need to update to 0.6 first.  Anyway, before you pull your hair out too much, re-check the software version on the camera to make sure it is indeed 0.7 especially if you came from 0.5.

I need to check the release 0.7 in case they changed something drastic from the alpha 0.7 I was testing, but as you can see from this video, the pink cast was a major problem with v6 and almost completely fixed with v7 in my experience:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k



Hello mklinger. Thank you very much for your explanation and review on V0.7.0. I'll definitely work on the DNG a bit more, like grading log from scratch.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2021, 06:52:11 PM by Tiny »

Tiny

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2021, 07:05:21 PM »
if anyone has a bunch of spare time, there is also a bunch of unstable 0.7.x Releases from before the Official 0.7.0 Stable Release:
 http://debian.krontech.ca/builds/
 Maybe one of them is different in terms of color. Whoever feels the need to or has the Time To do so, can also test them/ play around with them.
 Still havent looked at them, as i so far didnt even have time to propperly test the Stable Release, but downloaded and Archived them, as they probably will be gone sooner or later (as the 5.1 Unstable is long gone now), just in case they are usefull/ better for some resolution/ Setting i might need/ want at some point in the Future.
 So might be a good idea to download for anyone who wants to do some testing at some point, as long as they are still there.


Hello Nikon1. Thank you for the links to the unstable releases. Youíre absolutely right about testings, I think I just might test them all.

Tiny

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2021, 11:14:21 PM »

Hi muringuets, once you have the color correction figured out for a given light source, you should be able to create your own LUT (look-up-table), and then just apply that to any new footage shot in the same conditions.  That is how the process is designed to work with a color chart, shoot once with it, in sunlight, or your artificial lights, etc., use a VectorScope (in software) to dial in objectively perfect colors, or as close as possible, save the LUT, and then you can apply that to future footage with no extra effort or ever having to shoot the color chart again in the same lighting conditions.

Sorry for the long-winded response if you already understand this process.

Basically, shooting in Cinema DNG on the Chronos is now even more like shooting in Log or other various Raw formats on conventional video cameras.  Usually, the camera supplier will provide a basic LUT to start with, which is what is missing for us (for now).  For example, Canon provides a Log2->Rec709 LUT, Log3->Rec709, etc.  It is very challenging to start from scratch if you don't really know what you're doing.  For example, adjusting just white balance, tint, color temp, and global saturation is not going to work.  Those adjustments are meant to tweak the final color look, but wont get you from Log (or Cinema DNG in our case), to Rec709.

I would say it would be almost impossible to get objectively correct colors from Cinema DNG without a color chart. 

I like using the X-Rite ColorChecker Video.  It looks like it's been discontinued, but there is a newly name-branded version coming soon:

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/replacement_for/1191325-REG/x_rite_msccvpr_colorchecker_video.html


You mentioned that you use DaVinci Resolve.  The process of creating custom LUTs is super easy in that environment.  You can right-click on a clip in the color correction tab and there is a "Generate LUT" option right there where you can create a custom LUT from your existing correction.  The Gerald Undone video I linked in an earlier post shows this in more detail.

FWIW, I do a lot of video work with not just the Chronos, but things like a Canon XF-705, and various DSLRs.  I waited WAY too long before I got a proper color calibration chart and learned how to use it.  It makes all the difference in the world!


 

Hello mklinger. Iíve followed your instructions and colour corrected 2 clips, the result is much better now than before! I was just doing quick tests, will dive in more deeply in the near future.

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #28 on: September 07, 2021, 04:32:02 AM »


Hello mklinger. Iíve followed your instructions and colour corrected 2 clips, the result is much better now than before! I was just doing quick tests, will dive in more deeply in the near future.

Your color corrected clips are looking good, nice job!!

muringuets

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2021, 07:04:05 AM »
I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

One quick thing, double check that you updated all the way to version 0.7.  The pink/magenta cast was a big problem with 0.6 but I found it was pretty much completely fixed in 0.7 except for very high gain situations at low resolutions. 

If you were at version 0.5, I'm not sure if the camera would auto-update all the way to 0.7, or if you need to update to 0.6 first.  Anyway, before you pull your hair out too much, re-check the software version on the camera to make sure it is indeed 0.7 especially if you came from 0.5.

I need to check the release 0.7 in case they changed something drastic from the alpha 0.7 I was testing, but as you can see from this video, the pink cast was a major problem with v6 and almost completely fixed with v7 in my experience:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k

Hi mklinger, I did update correctly from 0.6.0 to 0.7.0, checked and it is working properly...

I watched your video about 0.7 alpha testing, and the other one you suggested about color correcting log videos. I'm new to this video editing and professional tools and stuff, I'd say I'm just used to the previous method of color correcting and editing videos. I own the 1.4 camera for about 2 years now, and it took me a while to get good results out of it, I was happy (not in the saving speed department, but it's okay), it's just another step that I'll have to conquer on this long learning curve, but I'll get there...

I have just one comment about all this, you're using the 2.1 camera, and I see a lot of posts around here where you guys have problems with this version (purple/magenta tint, lower resolutions problems, banding, etc), but I'd like to see some tests made on the 1.4 version, just to make sure the software is developing in a way older cameras are getting improved too, because if they don't, I might as well stay on and older software version...

Anyway, I understand the importance of this version, and the improvements you're getting on your camera, but comparing my footages on 0.6.0 and 0.7.0 I can't really see a lot of improvements, it's the other way around... And I say this mainly analising footage from open areas, without aditional lights, just regular sun light (perhaps too little lights, but that's what I have to work with)...

Anyway, seems like a good time to upgrade my camera...