Author Topic: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release  (Read 920 times)

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2021, 07:13:05 AM »
I still think quality wise 0.6.0 was a little better, the DNGs are coming out with a lot of color noise, and a nasty pink/magenta tint that I did not have before...

One quick thing, double check that you updated all the way to version 0.7.  The pink/magenta cast was a big problem with 0.6 but I found it was pretty much completely fixed in 0.7 except for very high gain situations at low resolutions. 

If you were at version 0.5, I'm not sure if the camera would auto-update all the way to 0.7, or if you need to update to 0.6 first.  Anyway, before you pull your hair out too much, re-check the software version on the camera to make sure it is indeed 0.7 especially if you came from 0.5.

I need to check the release 0.7 in case they changed something drastic from the alpha 0.7 I was testing, but as you can see from this video, the pink cast was a major problem with v6 and almost completely fixed with v7 in my experience:

https://youtu.be/a4dAjT9dE0k

Hi mklinger, I did update correctly from 0.6.0 to 0.7.0, checked and it is working properly...

I watched your video about 0.7 alpha testing, and the other one you suggested about color correcting log videos. I'm new to this video editing and professional tools and stuff, I'd say I'm just used to the previous method of color correcting and editing videos. I own the 1.4 camera for about 2 years now, and it took me a while to get good results out of it, I was happy (not in the saving speed department, but it's okay), it's just another step that I'll have to conquer on this long learning curve, but I'll get there...

I have just one comment about all this, you're using the 2.1 camera, and I see a lot of posts around here where you guys have problems with this version (purple/magenta tint, lower resolutions problems, banding, etc), but I'd like to see some tests made on the 1.4 version, just to make sure the software is developing in a way older cameras are getting improved too, because if they don't, I might as well stay on and older software version...

Anyway, I understand the importance of this version, and the improvements you're getting on your camera, but comparing my footages on 0.6.0 and 0.7.0 I can't really see a lot of improvements, it's the other way around... And I say this mainly analising footage from open areas, without aditional lights, just regular sun light (perhaps too little lights, but that's what I have to work with)...

Anyway, seems like a good time to upgrade my camera...

Ahh, I didn't realize you were using a Chronos 1.4.  It's my understanding that that camera has not had nearly the same image quality issues as the 2.1, at least not since its early days.  The 2.1 has been almost unusable under certain conditions until this release, so it's a big deal for that camera.

I have no idea how 0.7 works compared to 0.6 on a Chronos 1.4.  There probably isn't much image quality difference as it was already really good, from the examples I see (I don't own one).  Maybe the biggest reason for you to upgrade would be the saving speed increase, but if you are happy with the earlier version work flow, it might not be worth it.




Nikon1

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2021, 07:50:20 AM »
Didnt completely follow the last bit of conversation here, so sorry if i misread / misunderstand something, but from what i seen, the  1.4 had pretty decent Image Quality from rather Early on, and while it is still by far not a bad camera in any way, i would think that most people would mainly use the 1.4 for Higher framerates or general Highspeed Use. Anyone serious about High End Image Quality would want to use an 2.1, as even the 1080p FullHD Resolution the 2.1 Shoots is pretty much the Lowest Resolution that is still considered worth shooting for Entertainment/ Advertising/ ect. (4k is by now about Standard in mid to High end Consumer Cameras, 6K and 8K are coming... I personally still use mostly 1080p anyways, and Shoot 4K casually) today, with 720p HD being barely accepted as "high Quality" still. That in turn means that anyone using an 2.1 probably also is way more serious about getting High Quality Footage out of there. Given that there is also way less complaints about the 1.4 Image Quality to be heard, i guess the Focus of Development has become the 2.1 Image Quality. On the 1.4, as already has been said, you wouldnt really have much reason to upgrade anyways, if you just want to get Highspeed Footage of [whatever], and i assume most 1.4 Users wouldnt Upgrade camera Software regularly, but on the 2.1 there was also the Issue with the first batch of Sensors not being quite Perfect, so they behave Weird in some Situations and such. Causing Lines, Reduced Dynamic Range, Blacks Randomly cutting out completely in some Areas of the 2.1 Sensors and a lot of other things.
 .
 A good bit of all those Image Quality Improvements are still workarounds / fixes for those Problems that caused, not sure how the Current Batch of Sensors is Quality wise, but the first batch, of which i got one, was fairly bad. By now (from what i can tell so far from my rather limited amount of testing i did until now), with 6.0 and 7.0 Software, these Problems of the 2.1 Sensors have mostly been fixed, and you can get quite good footage from them in most Situations.
 .
 I dont own an 1.4 or have access to one, so i cant tell how these Improvements would affect one, but for the 2.1 these Fixes/ changes/ Improvements where Absolutely needed. Still not perfect, but way better than 5.1 and anything pre 5.1 (for most settings at least. Low Framerate stuff on the 2.1 is still best on Build 0.5.037.). With current versions, i can at least shoot Something without some Insane Lighting Setup and still needing to run heavy Denoising and other extreme Processing to get Presentable Footage.
 .
 Otherwise, anyone owning or using an 1.4 can and should still Post about any Issues here and i am sure they will be fixed sooner or later, but the 2.1 Sensor just seems to have an order of magnitude more Problems In terms of Image Quality, then the 1.4 Sensor ever had.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 07:56:05 AM by Nikon1 »

muringuets

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2021, 08:18:16 AM »
Nikon1, I think you got the point, but just to clarify, bear in mind that it is really hard to express myself clearly using technical language, but I'll do my best (english is not my country official language).

2.1 seems to have a lot of problems, so it's normal to focus on solving these problems, not complaining about the "attention it gets" in any sense...

1.4 are working fine for a while now, and it keeps receiving software updates, which is super awesome, and I'm not complaining too...

Point is, since the problems are mainly on 2.1, does the update bring anything better for 1.4?

Well, quick answer is yes, it should. And seems to be the case for the saving speeds.

But did anyone check for other aspects, like image quality? Did the software team checked the effects of these updates on 1.4?

I'll probably get an answer that says "sure it will improve quality and everything on 1.4 too, you're talking nonsense". That answer is okay for me, I'm not a professional videomaker and stuff, I'll accept it. I was just saying that comparing some footage I have on the 1.4 camera, it does not seem the case, and I may be wrong and it is ok too...


Nikon1

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #33 on: September 08, 2021, 08:30:29 AM »
No Problem at all, i myself am German and English is also not my native / first language. By now its not as bad as it used to be, but i even have problems expressing my thoughts in German Language at times, English is way worse, so i absolutely feel you in that one.
 .
 As far as the 1.4 / Software goes, i am like 200% sure they did test it to at least some extent on there, and if there where Major Issues / drawbacks from any Changes Made, i am also sure those would have been looked at (if noticed by whoever did whatever amount of testing on there..., Keep that in mind!) and solved in other ways.
 .
 If there are Issues with the 1.4 and 0.7.0, can you post examples/ give more Specific details about those?
 .
 I also noticed quite a bunch of Settings on 0.7.0, which will cause issues or worse Performance than Previous Releases, but dont want to post like 10 Single Posts about those, so i will put those Here, whenever i got time to do enough testing, that i can say [these Settings] cause [that] for sure, and can Provide Examples. Otherwise i think, i would just cause a ton of work for People at Krontech, which then would try to figure out however i managed to get so bad Footage in the First place. So i will try to provide documentation and also try to figure out a Pattern for when / what is going on (Gain/ Exposure Time Settings, will post later about that).
 .
 Would be interested myself also to see a Comparison on the 1.4, if you have any Footage on hand to share. Pretty sure That the Same goes for The Guys at Krontech.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2021, 11:47:10 AM by Nikon1 »

muringuets

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #34 on: September 08, 2021, 11:16:10 AM »
No Problem at all, i myself am German and English is also not my native / first language. By now its not as bad as it used to be, but i even have problems expressing my thoughts in German Language at times, English is way worse, so i absolutely feel you in that one.
 .
 As far as the 1.4 / Software goes, i am like 200% sure they did test it to at least some extent on there, and if there where Major Issues / drawbacks from any Changes Made, i am also sure those would have been looked at (if noticed by whoever did whatever amount of testing on there..., Keep that in mind!) and solved in other ways.
 .
 If there are Issues with the 1.4 and 0.7.0, can you post examples/ give more Specific details about those?
 .
 I also noticed quite a bunch of Settings on 0.7.0, which will cause issues or worse Performance than Previous Releases, but dont want to post like 10 Single Posts about those, so i will put those Here, whenever i got time to do enough testing, that i can say [these Settings] cause [that] for sure, and can Provide Examples. Otherwise i think, i would just cause a ton of work for People at Krontech, which then would try to figure out however i managed to get so bad Footage in the First place. So i will try to provide documentation and also try to figure out a Pattern for when / what is going on (Gain/ Exposure Time Settings, will post later about that).
 .
 Would be interested myself also to see a Comparison on the 1.4, if you have and Footage on hand to share. Pretty sure That the Same goes for The Guys at Krontech.

I'd be surprised if Krontech sent out a FW without major tests on both platforms, so as I said earlier, the answer will pobably be "yeah we tested, it's fine"...

But you raised an interesting point, perhaps the problems I experienced are coming out from wrong parameters in the setup, I'll check...

I've tried only a few shots on 0.7.0 and I'd definitely need more tests to confirm my assumption on the quality loss I observed... For now I'll keep testing, if something pops up as a potencial culprit I'll let you know...

takashima

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2021, 02:52:54 AM »
Hi, everyone.

I want to shoot with Cinema DNG with Chronos 2.1 Ver.0.7.0.
But I couldn't get the right color!
I searched for a solution for a while, finaly, I reached to the X-rite ColorChecker Passport 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2BWQRJbv8&t
↑Sorry, this is japanese clip.

I hesitated to pay close to $ 200 for this color chart, but the results were very very good. I wanted this color! I was finally able to reach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k7MYPWbIw&t
Thank you!
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 03:00:02 AM by takashima »

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2021, 04:27:47 AM »
Hi, everyone.

I want to shoot with Cinema DNG with Chronos 2.1 Ver.0.7.0.
But I couldn't get the right color!
I searched for a solution for a while, finaly, I reached to the X-rite ColorChecker Passport 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2BWQRJbv8&t
↑Sorry, this is japanese clip.

I hesitated to pay close to $ 200 for this color chart, but the results were very very good. I wanted this color! I was finally able to reach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k7MYPWbIw&t
Thank you!

Hi Takashima, congratulations on your color results, they look fantastic! 

It was also difficult for me to initially justify the cost of a color chart, but it's really a necessary tool if you are serious about the final results.

I look forward to seeing more of your videos!

clkdiv

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2021, 04:37:50 AM »
Very impressive! And very nice color!

Actually I don't understand how the color progress works. I wonder if a) the camera itself does have a LUT that is applied to the RAW internally or if b) the DNG really are absolutely unprocessed data and the LUT has to be applied in post?

If a): As the colors changed with the software version, there has to be some algorithm working in camera, right? If so: which? Is this the color Matrix?

If b): Does one have to develop sort of default setting for Adobe RAW or DaVinci then?

In any case, these settings would be shareable to all users of this camera, no?

Sorry for these beginners questions, I never digged into all that...
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 04:40:17 AM by clkdiv »

takashima

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #38 on: September 09, 2021, 04:57:38 AM »
Hi, everyone.

I want to shoot with Cinema DNG with Chronos 2.1 Ver.0.7.0.
But I couldn't get the right color!
I searched for a solution for a while, finaly, I reached to the X-rite ColorChecker Passport 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2BWQRJbv8&t
↑Sorry, this is japanese clip.

I hesitated to pay close to $ 200 for this color chart, but the results were very very good. I wanted this color! I was finally able to reach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k7MYPWbIw&t
Thank you!

Hi Takashima, congratulations on your color results, they look fantastic! 

It was also difficult for me to initially justify the cost of a color chart, but it's really a necessary tool if you are serious about the final results.

I look forward to seeing more of your videos!


Hello, Mklinger-san. Thank you very much!
I would like to recommend it to everyone who has similar problems with color development.
It's expensive shopping, but it's worth it.

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #39 on: September 09, 2021, 04:58:58 AM »
Very impressive! And very nice color!

Actually I don't understand how the color progress works. I wonder if a) the camera itself does have a LUT that is applied to the RAW internally or if b) the DNG really are absolutely unprocessed data and the LUT has to be applied in post?

If a): As the colors changed with the software version, there has to be some algorithm working in camera, right? If so: which? Is this the color Matrix?

If b): Does one have to develop sort of default setting for Adobe RAW or DaVinci then?

Sorry for these beginners questions, I never digged into all that...

Hi clkdiv,

I'm not 100% sure if DNG is completely unprocessed in the camera, but it certainly behaves similarly to Log and RAW formats from other video cameras which have very little or no processing.

The benefits of using DNG over H.264 are a higher color bit depth, meaning more color information is actually stored, which typically means more dynamic range is possible.  There are also no compression artifacts from the H.264 process itself, meaning you can wait until the very last step in your process to create a compressed video file for YouTube or whatever.  This is ideal if you do any post processing with the file.

Regarding your second question, yes, there really needs to be a default LUT that gets applied in post that goes from Cinema DNG to Rec709.  You need this LUT for every different lighting condition, but having a standard one for daylight would be very useful.  I suggested to the Kron folks that they publish a default LUT, and they are working towards that, but don't have one yet.  Having a proper color chart and some knowledge how to use it allows users to create these on their own and get really good results (like takashima's video above).

The general process is you shoot a video of just the color chart in your lighting conditions.  You color correct that video using a VectorScope (in software) based on the very objective "perfect" colors on the chart (which is why those charts cost $100+).  You then create a custom LUT that gets you the proper transformation in those conditions (this step is trivial in DaVinci Resolve).  Then, you can shoot anything else in those conditions and just apply that previous LUT and it'll get you there!

At this point, for 0.7 on a Chronos 2.1, if you don't have a color chart, I would probably stick to shooting H.264 for now - but even that needs some adjustment to get proper colors, but not nearly as much and you can get reasonable results with the basic adjustments like temp/tint/saturation.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 05:06:32 AM by mklinger »

takashima

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #40 on: September 09, 2021, 05:19:41 AM »
Very impressive! And very nice color!

Actually I don't understand how the color progress works. I wonder if a) the camera itself does have a LUT that is applied to the RAW internally or if b) the DNG really are absolutely unprocessed data and the LUT has to be applied in post?

If a): As the colors changed with the software version, there has to be some algorithm working in camera, right? If so: which? Is this the color Matrix?

If b): Does one have to develop sort of default setting for Adobe RAW or DaVinci then?

In any case, these settings would be shareable to all users of this camera, no?

Sorry for these beginners questions, I never digged into all that...

Hello. clkdiv-san

I shoot with Chronos 2.1 by default with both color settings and color matrix. Color processing is only in Adobe Lightroom. After processing, I export to jpegs and make movie.

Maybe the DNG file should include the camera profile (like LUT) of Chronos Camera. Apparently, a typical camera RAW file has a camera profile. So, if you open a typical RAW file in Adobe Lightroom or Camera RAW, etc., the camera profile will be applied and the color will be displayed properly. I interpreted so.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2021, 05:28:53 AM by takashima »

clkdiv

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #41 on: September 09, 2021, 05:53:23 AM »
Hello and thanks for your replies. I fully understand the advantages of RAW over H264, that's not my problem. I am just wondering where the "default" look of the RAW is created.

Now if I get it right, the in camera color Matrix is applied to H264 only, right?

In DaVinci you have that color matching tool. With this you can film the color cards you bought for 200$ and then make DaVinci match the footage the color card. As shown here, right?

Now would it be possible to film the color card with a standard 5.600k light and then match this footage min DaVindi to the color card, and boom, one would have a sharable algorithm that could be posted here? This would at least give a good starting point, no?

mklinger

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #42 on: September 09, 2021, 06:12:12 AM »
Hello and thanks for your replies. I fully understand the advantages of RAW over H264, that's not my problem. I am just wondering where the "default" look of the RAW is created.

Now if I get it right, the in camera color Matrix is applied to H264 only, right?

In DaVinci you have that color matching tool. With this you can film the color cards you bought for 200$ and then make DaVinci match the footage the color card. As shown here, right?

Now would it be possible to film the color card with a standard 5.600k light and then match this footage min DaVindi to the color card, and boom, one would have a sharable algorithm that could be posted here? This would at least give a good starting point, no?

Yes, exactly!  We are waiting for the Kron folks to create and share the "official" LUT.

I haven't had a chance to spend enough time with 0.7 yet to dial in a LUT with my 5600K lights, but I (or anyone) could certainly share DaVinci LUTs once created for a good starting point.  It's on my to-do list :)

Tiny

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #43 on: September 09, 2021, 07:53:03 AM »
Hi, everyone.

I want to shoot with Cinema DNG with Chronos 2.1 Ver.0.7.0.
But I couldn't get the right color!
I searched for a solution for a while, finaly, I reached to the X-rite ColorChecker Passport 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2BWQRJbv8&t
↑Sorry, this is japanese clip.

I hesitated to pay close to $ 200 for this color chart, but the results were very very good. I wanted this color! I was finally able to reach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k7MYPWbIw&t
Thank you!

Hello Takashima san. Beautiful colors! Looking forward to seeing more of your videos.

takashima

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Re: Chronos V0.7.0 Full Release
« Reply #44 on: September 09, 2021, 02:09:27 PM »
Hi, everyone.

I want to shoot with Cinema DNG with Chronos 2.1 Ver.0.7.0.
But I couldn't get the right color!
I searched for a solution for a while, finaly, I reached to the X-rite ColorChecker Passport 2.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xL2BWQRJbv8&t
↑Sorry, this is japanese clip.

I hesitated to pay close to $ 200 for this color chart, but the results were very very good. I wanted this color! I was finally able to reach it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-k7MYPWbIw&t
Thank you!

Hello Takashima san. Beautiful colors! Looking forward to seeing more of your videos.

HI, Tiny san.

I haven't been interested in color charts until now. I am very grateful for you and everyone.
I will continue to shoot various slow motions.

Thank you!