Author Topic: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup  (Read 965 times)

mkonrad

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Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« on: January 16, 2022, 09:40:13 AM »
Hello,

I am about to get the 2.1 for my studio work.
It would be almost exclusively used in a studio tabletop config
for perfume and cosmetics brands.

I have clients and agency on set for every shoot, so I need a solution where I can
save as fast as possible to continue and also be able to replay a previous clip.

Has anyone tested external SSD againt gigabyte ethernet (my laptop has a NVMe disk so write speed shoule not be the bottleneck)

If I save to SSD my only option to go back to a previous clip would be to transfer the disk to the laptop or to add an Atomos or Blackmagic Video assist to the HDMI out and record every replay...

What are your solutions?

Nikon1

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2022, 09:46:19 AM »
... and also be able to replay a previous clip.

 .
 Well, thats currently not going to happen in Camera.
 .
 As far as Save-Speed goes, a SSD is Fastest, and Storage Media is Generally not the Bottleneck on this Camera, more the Type of Interface is. From what i know, Ethernet should be slower, but did not do Tests myself on that, just seen other People say that.
 If you are Shooting Professionally, you pretty much would want to use CinemaDNG, which is slower. H.264 is faster, but gives you a lot less Room for Adjustments in Post.

mkonrad

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2022, 12:05:51 PM »
Yes, I would only use CinemaDNG

From specs alone Gigabyte Ethernet is 100Mb/s
So possibly it could get close to the 60Mb/s quoted elsewhere for SSD save speed.
For replay it looks like my best option is feeding the HDMI out into a recorder that cross converts to SDI (the Blackmagic Videoassist 12g does, not sure about Atomos) and hit record every time I replay a clip. From the recorder on I can cable all monitoring with SDI as I would with my Red. That makes swapping cameras faster as well as I often only have one or two High speed shots and the rest would be shot at 25-120fps on Red.

mklinger

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2022, 03:39:34 PM »
Yes, I would only use CinemaDNG

From specs alone Gigabyte Ethernet is 100Mb/s
So possibly it could get close to the 60Mb/s quoted elsewhere for SSD save speed.
For replay it looks like my best option is feeding the HDMI out into a recorder that cross converts to SDI (the Blackmagic Videoassist 12g does, not sure about Atomos) and hit record every time I replay a clip. From the recorder on I can cable all monitoring with SDI as I would with my Red. That makes swapping cameras faster as well as I often only have one or two High speed shots and the rest would be shot at 25-120fps on Red.

I would say 60 MB/s to the SSD is more of a best case.  If you shoot faster/smaller files, it won't be as fast.  For example, the latest work I'm doing is at 1152x380 at ~5000 fps.  That save settles out at around 40 fps saving with 859 KB CinemaDNG files, so about 34 MB/sec.

The camera has overhead with creating the files from memory, it's not just transferring the data. 

I have done remote transfer via gigabit Ethernet, and it's slower than saving to SSD which is not surprising as there is even more overhead to create the proper network protocols.  Even in a studio environment, your fastest solution will most likely involve saving the data to an SSD and then physically moving that SSD to the computer and load it via USB3.  That is what I typically do and it works well.  I don't think there is any faster way to get the data to a computer for post processing.

For just replay/proofing, something like an external display and recorder via the HDMI output would probably work well, but I haven't done that. 

If the purpose of immediate review is to determine if you need to reshoot, just using the camera's monitor is quick and easy and by the time everything else is going, you can save the segment to the SSD and move it to the computer for proper viewing.

FWIW, I don't think there is a single high speed camera that is "fast" in the same way normal video cameras are.  Even Phantoms record to memory and have to save to external devices which isn't fast.

Also, remember for best results you'll need to account for about a 20 minute warmup time and black calibration every time you change settings.  Again, all high speed cameras are currently like this from my understanding.

Nikon1

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2022, 06:24:31 AM »
If you never worked with "actual Highspeed-Cameras" before, i would highly recommend you to find a way to test one before you go and buy one.
 Highspeed-Cameras are really a much different Breed from almost anything else in Cinema- and DSLR- Camera World.
 I personally never got my hands on an Vision Research Phantom Camera, but dont even know if those would allow for Playback of previously Recorded Clips. From what i know and have seen, most or all Highspeed-Cameras that Save to RAM usually just let you play back whatever is in RAM, and once that is saved to Flash or SSD Memory, and gone (either a new Recording now in RAM or Camera has been Restarted and RAM is now Empty), it cant be played back on Camera anymore, and you need to Review that Footage from PC.
 .
 If your Butget allows for that, might consider Looking at the "Freefly Wave" Camera. https://freeflysystems.com/wave
 That one is probably one of the more Familiar Cameras in terms of Workflow compared to a Traditional Digital Cine-Camera. Anything else you will need to have considerable time planed to save your Footage to permanent Memory. (always depends heavily on the Length of Clips you are going to Save, a Full Memory Save on a 32GB Chronos takes what feels like Ages).
 Now, i also dont know, if the Freefly Wave would allow for Playback of Previous Clips (kind of has to, as it, from what i understand has no RAM, but saves to SSD Directly. so to playback anything at all, it would need to be able to read from there as Well and Play any clip on there?), but in your case, where you probably would mostly or exclusively use 1920x1080 or 1280(1440)x720 at 1kfps / 2.1kfps on the Chronos Anyways, the Wave Camera would at least allow for a bit more Framerate, higher Resolution if needed, and no additional Time needed for Saving Footage.
 For The Higher End Framerates (5k+fps) and more general Highspeed-Use the Chronos is just generally better and Flexible, but as a pure "Cine-Style" camera for Mainly Studio use next to a RED, the Wave would probably do better.
 So, would be a good Idea to test in my Opinion, as Highspeed-Shooting might also still has a bunch of more Nasty Surprises prepared for you, if you never worked with Highspeed, among others The Insane Amount of Light needed, Fan Noise, and a Bunch more not quite as Obvious ones.
 .
 As i was somewhat curious about the Wave Camera anyways, but never had an Actual need for anything alike, or even Time or money to ever buy one anytime soon, i so far have not looked further into it.
 But as there is currently one offered to Rent from A Rental House in Germany, and its not even that crazy expensive for a Day, that would be a good excuse to maybe finally take a look at it for me.
 I dont know where you are from, but if you are from Germany or anywhere near Germany, i can offer to meet up somewhere somehow, and you could test them Both for your use.
 Pretty sure, you would be able to find someone with a Chronos who would let you have a Play with it for a bit anywhere close to your Location, even if you are far from Germany.

mkonrad

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2022, 06:45:25 AM »
thanks for eveyons input

I have about 20 days a year with the Phantom Flex 4k, so I do know the slower process when shooting high speed and I do have
the lighting required to shot tabletop stuf at 1000fps.

The Chronos come in when the clients do not allow for the extra budget... I get quite often requests where only one shot
whould need a high speed camera so an extra 3000 Euros for camera and operator are not possible.

But as clients and agencies are used to a process of changing their mind, waiting for validation by collegues who are not in the studio and reviewing previous clips I rather have to find a solution than saying "not possible with this camera/your budget"

I will get a Videoassist for replay, just have to make sure not to forget to hit record manually every time I replay a clip.

Has anyone tried to connect USB-C SSDs via a eSatap to USB-C cable? If the cable is not slower than 60M/s it would be a cleaner rig and more solid than connecting frequently to the exposed Sata pins of a 2.5" or M2disk


Nikon1

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2022, 06:57:09 AM »
i see.
 In that Case a low Quality Proxy Type Footage of the Highspeed Footage Playback to easily send to Someone Off-Location would indeed be useful and much needed.
 Renting a Top-End Highspeed-Camera for a Single Shot is also usually not practical. at the Prices these cost to Rent for like 3 individual Days, you can pretty much buy a Chronos 2.1 just to later use as a Paperweight if you wanted, or eventually Resell if not needed anymore (Highspeed-Cameras Keep their Value reasonably well over Time, at least until now, dont know whatever Tech the Future brings us).
 .
 For the USB-C SSDs and Adapter to eSataP, can you Provide some kind of Link (amazon, Ebay, some other Online Store,...) for me, never heard of that, but would be interested to try, if it seems Possible.

mkonrad

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2022, 07:08:53 AM »
I found this, on Amazon France, I know its meant to be used the other way round, esata disk to usb-C on the computer side,
but I doubt its one directional...

https://www.amazon.fr/Cablecc-Adaptateur-Type-C-eSATAp-Convertisseur/dp/B08M3PD3PT

Nikon1

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2022, 07:13:33 AM »
well, it does say very Clearly in one of the Images, that USB-C would be the Host, and eSataP would be the Device, so i highly doubt, that would work to connect the Chronos To an USB-C Drive. (See Attachment)

mkonrad

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2022, 07:25:37 AM »
...
 If your Butget allows for that, might consider Looking at the "Freefly Wave" Camera. https://freeflysystems.com/wave
 That one is probably one of the more Familiar Cameras in terms of Workflow compared to a Traditional Digital Cine-Camera....

I had a look at the Wave but for me the file format is a deal-breaker. 9 out of 10 times times all footage goes straight to a post house and they do not have the Freefly app installed and sometimes do not even have access to install new software without their network administrator...
I also think the 1000fps footage looks better from the Chronos than the 2k Wave and if the client needs 4k finishing, there is usually the budget for the Phantom Flex...

Where in Germany are you? I live and work in Paris now but I am originally from Germany

mkonrad

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2022, 10:17:56 AM »
well, it does say very Clearly in one of the Images, that USB-C would be the Host, and eSataP would be the Device, so i highly doubt, that would work to connect the Chronos To an USB-C Drive. (See Attachment)


looks like this won't work, from the Q&A on Amazon

Question:Can i use this to connect a usb-c drive to a computer that has an esata host port on it? or is it for esata drives to connect to a usb-c computer?
Answer:The USB3C2ESAT3 is designed to connect an eSATA drive to a computer with USB-C. It will not work in reverse.

ivandan

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Re: Best (fastest) studio config in client + agency setup
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2022, 02:46:08 AM »
Is there a result of the maximum speed of saving files DNG? How was it achieved?
ssd brand model? my max speed 15-20 mb/s