getting frustrated trying to figure out how to get a good picture

[leonpiper]

Just had time to finally play with the 1.4 I picked up used on ebay. At first it wouldn't power on correctly and boot up. someone here walked me through updating the small card and that worked.

Can someone explain what is going on? At first I thought I got scammed on ebay and got stuck with a black and white camera. But I can see colors under certain conditions.

The back focus was way off in my opinion. My camera came with the Computar 12.5-75 lens and I couldn't get it to focus except for over 30 feet or more away. I played with the back focus and set it leaving the lens focus set to 7M instead of infinity and got better results. My shutter is almost all the way closed but it still seems like waaay too much light. Just a bright outside day.

The fist section of the grass was with the back focus how I received it and it looked black and white. The section with my dog and the pool was after playing with the back focus.

I plan on mostly shooting outside and want to get as good of a picture as possible. The shot with my dog, is that as good as I should expect with one of these cameras? Would a diff lens for close up help? I have some cannon prime lenses I could try, just have to get an adapter.

Thank you

This is unlisted on youtube so hopefully someone can help me grasp what I am going wrong.

 

[hummingbirdography]

I think you have a combination of a few issues going on here.

• A magenta color cast is typically because your white balance and/or color matrix settings are off. I think most people generally don't change the default color matrix settings, so it's probably only your white balance settings which need adjusted. However, on a Chronos 1.4 the factory default matrix is CIECAM16/D55. I recommend for beginners to use that default matrix setting, in combination with a custom white balance. These cameras don't have an auto white balance feature, however there is one neat trick which you can try if you weren't able to capture a white balance sample before shooting- you can sample the white balance after recording some footage and before saving it
  
  
• The image displayed on the camera's LCD will likely appear different compared to displayed on your computer. However, an external monitor can provide a lot more accurate preview while shooting, especially one designed for monitoring video. If you don't have one of those, you might want to try using your computer for monitoring- either by connecting to the camera's RTSP video stream, or with an HDMI capture card.
  
  
• Any overexposed or underexposed images will always lack color. The "zebras" feature should be able to help guide setting your exposure. The more zebras you see, the less color you can expect.
  
  
• As for that Computar lens, I've only tried it once or twice, but I seem to recall it wasn't very sharp, especially at its maximum aperture, and it did have a relatively far out minimum focusing distance. Technically you could reduce the minimum focusing distance by stacking more C-mount spacers, but you might be better off with getting an adapter for your Canon primes. Just keep in mind that most of the modern Canon lenses require power in order to change some settings such as the aperture. I recommend using the Chronos MFT plate in combination with a Metabones Speedbooster. The original models included a microUSB port which your Chronos could provide power to, and therefor power the lens (as well as provide an extra F-stop of light to work with). Regardless of which lens you go with, its generally a best practice to ensure infinity/back focus calibration before shooting. There's a video tutorial on how to do that here:

What file format are you saving this footage in, and what software are you using to load it on your computer?

 

[leonpiper]

Thank you for the tips. I did leave the color matrix defaulted. I am not completely sure what and where or how to adjust the matrix properly so I left it at default as I figured I would do more harm than good.

I did try playing with white balance a few times and the footage I posted was the best result I could get so far.

I saw something about zebras in a video (not the cartoon "zebras in a america" but a video on youtube about making adjustments but I don't recall seeing any zebras in the background but will try some more tomorrow.

I already ordered a simple adapter. I will try playing with it with a few other lenses before I spring for the MFT plate though it looks nice, I don't want to buy it and find out it isn't what I want.

 

[hummingbirdography]

Sounds good! Make sure you check your back focus is calibrated when switch adapters or lenses.

The zebras feature can be found on the 'Main' tab of the 'Util' menu, it will draw an animated zebra stripe pattern in overexposed regions (95% or brighter) while the camera is in a live or recording state.

If you're saving in a compressed format such as H264, it's especially important to get the white balance set correctly on the camera before saving the footage.

 

[leonpiper]

I misunderstood. I thought the zebra pattern just happen to show up if it was out of balance etc. Thank you.

 

[leonpiper]

Messed around with the zebra and I feel like it made a difference. I definitely do not completely understand the custom color settings. I looked at it but it's greek. So I need to do so more reading and hopefully there is a video about it.

Already thinking about buying a phantom because I am having trouble with this camera.

This was stuff I just shot this morning. My dog is VERY yellow/brown and the concrete is grey. Yes they come out as though it's through a rose colored filter. I was able to get it to focus closed with the back focus but haven't tried a cannon lens yet.

also realized afterwards when I shot the faster frame rate I needed to open the shutter up more.

 

[hummingbirdography]

What file format are you saving in?

Also, how are you setting your white balance?

 

[leonpiper]

Saving is default so it plays as an MP4.

White balance I have tried selecting each one and it didn't make it any better just worse. I tried bright sunshine, partly cloudy and even the indoor settings and all the rest with no luck.

 

[leonpiper]

I found a youtube channel called "fuzzy dice pastimes" and they are getting good colors in their videos with a 1.4. They don't have an email listed but I left a comment.

 

[hummingbirdography]

Interesting. Are you seeing the magenta tint on the camera's LCD as well?

Two more things which you might want to try:

1. Try using a custom white balance, by sampling a gray card or other monochrome target, such as a white piece of paper. Personally this is my preferred approach- I rarely ever use the white balance presets. With the 2.1 model, those presets have an even stronger magenta tint compared to the 1.4, however when I sample a live reference, the 'tint' of the white balance tends to shift from magenta to green so much that I typically have to shift the tint back towards magenta during post.

2. Save as DNG format instead. If you don't have any video editing software which supports DNG sequences, check out the free version of DaVinici Resolve, it's is a popular choice with Chronos users. When saving as a DNG sequence, the white balance and color matrix is saved as metadata, unlike saving as MP4 where its encoded into every pixel value. Testing this approach can help narrow down if the problem is related to your camera's color settings, and you also benefit from having 12 bit colors rather than 8 bit.

Do you have a color checker card? It could be a really big help in this situation. This is what I use:

When I shoot with a Chronos 1.4 or 2.1, my workflow generally goes like this:

1. Wait for sensor temperature to stabilize (especially after a cold boot)
2. Select desired resolution & frame rate for the scene.
3. Turn on zebras
4. Adjust exposure and/or aperture until only the brightest chip on the color checker is getting zebras
5. Sample gray card of color checker
6. Perform black calibration
7. Start shooting
8. If the white balance looks off during playback, carefully go back to the live view and take one more white balance sample before returning to playback and saving the footage

I attached a before & after comparison of an H.264 saved from the Chronos 1.4, where the left side is the MP4 with only the above workflow steps, and the right side is with the steps in that video tutorial applied. Although the colors are still a bit off on both sides, at least they're both a lot closer to the colors they're supposed to be.

On a side note, it's a known issue with the 1.4 and 2.1 cameras that the quality of the color data decreases when reducing the resolution to achieve higher frame rates. If color accuracy is your highest priority, make sure to shoot at the highest resolution setting.

 

[leonpiper]

I will definitely check that out.

I have Filmora for video software. I don't have a color card and have yet to try one of my prime lenses. I usually only have time sun mon and tues to do anything because of work.

I was bidding today on a used Phantom 1211.....once it got to 6K I let the other guy win.

 

[leonpiper]

and I just order that data color spyder

 

[hummingbirdography]

Sounds good! However you should be able to achieve comparable results using a monochrome reference such as a white piece of paper. The color checker I sent is mostly for calibrating your RGB & CYM primaries to the 75% and 100% targets on a vectorscope. If you're still getting a strong magenta tint with a white piece of paper (in combination with either CIECAM16 or CIECAM02) then there might be something wrong with your cameras hardware. I sent you a direct message regarding that.

 

[1022mm]

Try exporting a DNG sequence and see if the color issue persists. I have seen similar issues with a magenta-tinted picture, but only occasionally. When it happens for me is when the first frame is corrupted somehow, which messes up remaining frames. It's only happened to me 3 or 4 times since I got the camera. Curious if you see the same with the first few frames of a DNG sequence.

 

[leonpiper]

Try exporting a DNG sequence and see if the color issue persists. I have seen similar issues with a magenta-tinted picture, but only occasionally. When it happens for me is when the first frame is corrupted somehow, which messes up remaining frames. It's only happened to me 3 or 4 times since I got the camera. Curious if you see the same with the first few frames of a DNG sequence.

It looks magenta on the screen before even recording. But I can certainly look into how to do that and give it a try.

 

[leonpiper]

Interesting. Are you seeing the magenta tint on the camera's LCD as well?

Two more things which you might want to try:

1. Try using a custom white balance, by sampling a gray card or other monochrome target, such as a white piece of paper. Personally this is my preferred approach- I rarely ever use the white balance presets. With the 2.1 model, those presets have an even stronger magenta tint compared to the 1.4, however when I sample a live reference, the 'tint' of the white balance tends to shift from magenta to green so much that I typically have to shift the tint back towards magenta during post.

2. Save as DNG format instead. If you don't have any video editing software which supports DNG sequences, check out the free version of DaVinici Resolve, it's is a popular choice with Chronos users. When saving as a DNG sequence, the white balance and color matrix is saved as metadata, unlike saving as MP4 where its encoded into every pixel value. Testing this approach can help narrow down if the problem is related to your camera's color settings, and you also benefit from having 12 bit colors rather than 8 bit.

Do you have a color checker card? It could be a really big help in this situation. This is what I use:

When I shoot with a Chronos 1.4 or 2.1, my workflow generally goes like this:

1. Wait for sensor temperature to stabilize (especially after a cold boot)
2. Select desired resolution & frame rate for the scene.
3. Turn on zebras
4. Adjust exposure and/or aperture until only the brightest chip on the color checker is getting zebras
5. Sample gray card of color checker
6. Perform black calibration
7. Start shooting
8. If the white balance looks off during playback, carefully go back to the live view and take one more white balance sample before returning to playback and saving the footage

I attached a before & after comparison of an H.264 saved from the Chronos 1.4, where the left side is the MP4 with only the above workflow steps, and the right side is with the steps in that video tutorial applied. Although the colors are still a bit off on both sides, at least they're both a lot closer to the colors they're supposed to be.

On a side note, it's a known issue with the 1.4 and 2.1 cameras that the quality of the color data decreases when reducing the resolution to achieve higher frame rates. If color accuracy is your highest priority, make sure to shoot at the highest resolution setting.

I need to read more in the manual about how to take a white balance sample. That part is a little over my head. Right now I am under the impression the only thing I can do with white balance is just select diff options from the drop down (.i.e. bright sunlight, partly cloudy, fluorescent lighting etc etc)

 

[hummingbirdography]

Taking a custom white balance sample is quite easy. Just press the White Bal button on the right side of the live view, aim the cross hairs at a white subject, and press Set Custom. If you're not seeing any significant difference between presets or various custom samples, it sounds like there was a hardware failure. I sent you a direct message through the forum regarding this. You'll either need to contact Kron Tech via [email protected] to initiate an RMA, or try to work with eBay on getting a refund.

 

[leonpiper]

HUGE BREAKTHOUGH!!!!!!

I feel like an idiot....I don't do so well at taking my time and reading instructions... I get distracted and etc etc.

Well a light bulb just clicked in my head. I was reading the manual again in case I missed something and I DID!!!!
I was never putting a piece of white paper in front of the camera to set the white balance. I was interpreting setting the white balance as simply picking the appropriate setting for the conditions. I didn't realize that camera was actually referencing something.

Just got home from work about half hour ago and after that last post I went and reread the manual, that light bulb came on and I went and tried it in the kitchen. I am on the east coast so it's already getting dark out.

This time I used a piece of paper and holy molly it worked. Can't wait to try some stuff out tomorrow.

Thanks to those that helped. Hopefully we can have a lot of fun with it.
I have a small gun shop and my son loves youtube because he is only 13. We have to use youtube because facebook takes down almost everything. Not trying to spam this forum but here is a video we made this week playing a game we like (battleship) at 100 yards.\

As you can see we are just having fun and not trying to be youtubers. But for any of you that shoot this was still a challenge and I was super proud of him.

 

[hummingbirdography]

Excellent! I'm happy to hear the white balance stuff is sorted out now. Your Canon lenses will probably make the picture even better looking too.

It's a best practice to take new white balance samples anytime lighting conditions, camera settings or equipment changes.

That's definitely the most epic way I've ever seen battleship played! I'm looking forward to seeing some of your Chronos captures- there are some footage threads on this forum you might want to chime in on

 

[leonpiper]

Thank you I will try.

Did you happen to see his shooting? He really does well for his age. Being in canada I don't know if you have ever shot rifles or not (I guess it used to be more common). But at 100 yards (that is I think a little under 100 meters and the bullseye is only 5/8" (or 15mm) it's not easy.